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Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI

Posted By: domingo

Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/01/10 08:56 PM

Hi!

I want to make my own honing plate for B/RB and HEMI engines.

I was looking for some advice here.

1. How thick does it need to be? Any other special considerations?

2. Is it possible to make the plate work for both HEMI and B/RB bolt patterns. I think the only difference is the 5th bolt hole towards the lifter valley, but I think it overlaps, so It cant be drilled for the dual pattern. Instead I was thinking of flipping the plate and drilling it for the HEMI pattern because I thinik the holes wont overlap that way. Has anybody done it like that? Does it work?
Posted By: topside

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/01/10 09:04 PM

Get a head gasket for each motor, lay one over the other, and see what you get. Buddy of mine that makes torque plates usually makes them 2" thick, head gasket gives you the hole pattern, depth of the holes is cut to duplicate shape of the head and the clamping load on the block.
It's not as easy as it sounds. Contact CJ @ cj@yother.com or at 510-865-2787, he may have one in stock.
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 02/01/10 09:12 PM

Posted By: CHAPPER

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/01/10 10:32 PM

Been there/done that...a whole lot simplier to buy a plate!!!! The time spent making one is way more than you anticipate.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/01/10 10:46 PM

There are going to be some naysayers about this, however ...

Since a torque plate is there to duplicate the stresses applied by the bolts, simply making one out of 2" plate isn't the solution. The plate needs to be milled to accept the shorter bolts on the exhaust side.

If you're going to do it, water-jetting the bores would likely be the cheapest route and they don't need to be accurately sized, anything larger than the bore you're working with will do.

Now then... As previously stated, its the stresses of the bolts you want to duplicate so ... get a length of 7/16" or 1/2" i.d. DOM tubing with as thick of a wall as can be used without overhanging the bores. Cut lengths equal to the head thickness at each bolt. Ideally they should be finished on a lathe to ensure the ends are square so as not to improperly load the bolts. Make a complete set and torque these down. Voila, poor man's torque plate! Hone away!
Posted By: Moparteacher

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/01/10 11:10 PM

I can tell you this...use a hemi plate on a wedge block and your cylinders won't come out round.
Posted By: rowin4

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 01:46 AM

Quote:

Would it be easier to just buy a junk set of iron Hemi heads and mill the cylinder holes in them?





Cost of the junk head alone would be more than a honing plate, then you'd still have to poke the holes in it.



But then again, I just looked up what a aluminum honing plate for a hemi was and it was $790.00 Got a junk head and a hole saw?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 06:08 AM

If you can't afford to buy a torque plate then just use head bolts (or studs) with the correct spacers under them. That is super cheap and will get you roughly the same result.
Posted By: domingo

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 09:26 PM

I can make my own plate. It's not rocket science.

I have a friend with a CNC.

Whats the bore spacing on a B/RB and HEMI? I am asking because I can draw the thing on the CNC, specify 4,6" bores and Im done. Ill drill the head bolt holes by hand on a bench drill using a gasket as a template. or if I can draw them on the PC the cnc will take care of the bolt pattern too.

I also checked with gasket and I can flip the plate and drill both the hemi and RB bolt pattern using the same plate....Ill just have to flip it for RB and then again flip it for HEMI.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 09:39 PM

Quote:

Ill drill the head bolt holes by hand on a bench drill using a gasket as a template.




17 1/2" holes through 2" plate on a drillpress... You're a better man than me !!!!
Posted By: Diablo

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 09:49 PM

I've made two plates over the years. One for a RB and one for my TS engine. (hemi bolt pattern and 4.840bs)

The guy at the engine shop said he had none for mopars so a just made my own out of 2 inch mild steel. Cut the big wholes on a small milling machine and did all the bolt holes on a drill press.

The guy asked me if i would start making them for him cause he said he was paying 800-1000$ for plates.

Pretty easy to make if you have the time.
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 10:41 PM

Keep in mind, the bolt pattern for the inner row of studs is angled on hemi blocks/heads.
Posted By: domingo

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/02/10 10:51 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind, the bolt pattern for the inner row of studs is angled on hemi blocks/heads.


Thanks for that tip.

Whats the bore spacing on the HEMI and RB?
Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 02:35 AM

4.800 is the bore spacing,, i have a print that gives you dowel locations, bolt holes, cylinder bores,,, give me your email and ill try to send it in the next few days,, it will be an iges file
Posted By: rowin4

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 02:41 AM

Jeff while your on here, how hard would it be to use a junk head for a plate?

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 02/03/10 03:08 AM

Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 03:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jeff while your on here, how hard would it be to use a junk head for a plate?





I already asked that, I'd like to know also. Seems like it would produce real world distortions in the block. The ideal situation would be to run hot water through the block while honing.




Cutting the bores out of a head changes the structural integrity of the head itself thereby changing the way it affects the bore distortion(not to mention cuts open the water jacket so out goes the hot honing theory). Using a torque plate will simulate the majority of the distortion, but adding the same head gasket as will be used in the final combo gets it as close as practical. From what I've experienced, using a cometic doesn't change it much, a composition with a fire ring acts like a fulcrum and changes things substantially. Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 03:48 AM

Quote:

Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.




Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!
Posted By: hemigod426

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 03:51 AM

just buy a used bhj hemi plate of ebay they pop up now and again cheap, unless your wicked machinist might do more harm than good
Posted By: rowin4

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 03:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.




Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!





When I read that post I didn't look who wrote it, thought that's not going to work, but then , I'm the one always
asking questions.

Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 04:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.




Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!




He's a very intelligent and experienced individual and engine builder and someone I would consider a friend. I'm just relating my experiences and opinions on the matter, not putting anyone down.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 04:49 AM

The distortion is caused by the bolts being torqued into the deck. The bolt torque is the only force and can be duplicated by just using a spacer. The spacer length is what is critical because you need to have the proper thread engagement into the block.

If you look at a torque plate the material between the bolts isn't doing anything. It can't do much because all of the load is applied with the bolts and there is no other load.

There might be a small amount of clamping load transmitted to the deck from the plate but the primary force is the torque from the bolts.

Engine builders don't use individual spacers because it is a real pain to install them all rather than just drop a plate onto the deck. But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the parts we have the spacer trick will work just fine.
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 05:10 AM

Quote:

The distortion is caused by the bolts being torqued into the deck. The bolt torque is the only force and can be duplicated by just using a spacer. The spacer length is what is critical because you need to have the proper thread engagement into the block.

If you look at a torque plate the material between the bolts isn't doing anything. It can't do much because all of the load is applied with the bolts and there is no other load.

There might be a small amount of clamping load transmitted to the deck from the plate but the primary force is the torque from the bolts.

Engine builders don't use individual spacers because it is a real pain to install them all rather than just drop a plate onto the deck. But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the parts we have the spacer trick will work just fine.



Using spacers and no plate would be counter productive for an engine builder/machinist. I have plates that use spacers along with ARP hardware to not only maintain the correct thread engagement, but to ensure that the torque is applied to the fastener of correct length and made of the same material. Using a grade 8 bolt with have different results than an ARP high strength bolt or stud for that matter. There are clamping loads, albeit small, transmitted to the deck and they have an effect. What will have a greater effect is putting a head gasket under that torque plate and seeing the forces change the shape of the bores.

A lot of people bolt water pumps to the front of blocks and put bellhousing bolts in and torque them to simulate those forces as well. You can get wayyyyy too caught up in trying to simulating all that.

I agree that for a guy in Lima, Peru the spacers would be better than nothing at all.
Posted By: Spode

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 05:14 AM

Quote:


But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the partes we have the spacer trick will work just fine.




i think its pretty cool some guy in peru is into mopars and builds them also
keep up the good work.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 06:47 AM

I don't think the plate does much but if it does then a guy could build a one hole plate and just move it from bore to bore. That would be easier than building a whole plate.

I know that people do all kinds of things but that doesn't mean it matters. Witch doctors flip chicken guts around to cure people, doesn't mean it does anything. A lot of engine builders are witch doctors in their own way. They do certain rituals but it doesn't mean that it makes a difference. Just like ballplayers who wear the same socks for every game or don't shave when they are on a winning streak.

I'm pretty sure that a bolt torqued into a cast iron block 6 inches away doesn't do anything to a cylinder bore. The stress is very local and there isn't enough force involved to move material that is outside the immediate area. The thread torque is only being applied to the threads in the block. Once those threads in the block distort they absorb all of the force and there isn't anything left to move material further away.

Of course, all of this is very dependent on the engine block in question. I think the SB Ford engines are the worst for bore distortion due to thin walls and thin deck. Some engines don't even need torque plates because the head bolts don't go into the deck. The new LS motors are like that with the bolts doing down into the bottom of the block. You can torque on those all day and the cylinder bores don't distort. I think the Mopar NASCAR engine is the same way.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 01:09 PM

I would think that if you put a head gasket on it
changes the whole thing with the fire ring applying
a completely different force and if I remember correctly
most (if not all) dont use a gasket.... I would also
think that the hot water would also be another major
factor.... JMO
Posted By: domingo

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 04:17 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Im currently making my own honing plate using a parelell decked 2" steel plate.

I am doing it all with a CNC at a friend's shop.

Yes, I would have bought a honing plate instead of messing and making my own....but air freight on a 2" thick steel plate would kinda hurt my wallet a bit!!! I have to figure out things so that they work best for me and achieve good results too!!! Living down here in Peru limits me somehow sometimes...but its all good fun!
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/03/10 11:53 PM

The stress is very local

I agree, that's very important. The clamping area isn't much bigger than 1" radial to the bolt itself.
It's not everything, but it's the only certain thing - a full plate cannot duplicate the bending stress of an actual head casting with water passages, let alone a head with rocker stands, accessories and spring tension, and is likely to stress over or under or in the wrong places.
If you can, torquing the mains in place, etc. is also useful, but has far less effect since cylinder distortion is not only much smaller (bolts aren't close to the bore) but much less critical since it's at the lowest point of cylinder pressure.
Posted By: TrWaters

Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI - 02/04/10 11:09 PM

I had also thought of boring out the chambers of an early hemi head to use as a torque plate. The problem I ran in to was that the headbolts (8 inches long) also hold the rocker stands in place. Are there hones that will reach that far?
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