There has been much discussion on Gas-FX and other email groups lately on the need for Commercial Driver's Licenses (CDL) and Department of Transportation numbers (USDOT). This discussion was led primarily by Mary Cedeno. Mary and her husband, Carlos, are the current caretakers of the famous Kohler Bros. King Kong Anglia. Mary has done a tremendous amount of research on this issue, and the results are not particularly comforting. Please read the following article and contact any of your friends who may be impacted. This includes not just "car people", but also "boat people, "horse people" and anyone else whose hobby may include towing a trailer.
If this information concerns you (and it should!) you might consider contacting your local, state, and federal representatives and demanding that they press for simplification of the rules (Yeah...that'll happen!) and, at the very least, provide education so that law enforcement officers can be consistent in enforcing these rules correctly.

I'd like to thank Mary for allowing her research to be shared with visitors to Gasser Madness!.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: 7/31/2007
I have just finished speaking with yet another rep from the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Admin office - I have asked for help in disseminating the information about the exception WITH the guidance information. At first, he insisted that all the DOT enforcement officers should be aware of the exception because they are all trained. But when I explained how many phone calls I had made to how many offices and even the FMCSA help line did not know about the exception, he finally agreed that they might be able to help. So he has taken my information and I am hoping he will come through for us.


He has questioned why he has not heard about any problems with this from anyone else. I have explained that some of the people who are exempt (under 390.3(f)(3) have gone ahead and gotten a DOT number without realizing that they are now required to keep the logs, do the driver reviews, drug testing, and so on. So, they are in effect, rolling over and trying to be compliant with a regulation that does not even apply to them. When they DO get stopped, it will not be enough that they have a number plastered on their vehicle....ALL THE FMCSA Safety regs (see form MCS-150A) WILL apply to them. He agreed that they would be in effect, agreeing that they are in commerce by getting the number.

The DOT enforcement officers have threatened to impound peoples' vehicles - if you are out of state when this happens, your only recourse is to fight the citation and then head back to that state to go before a judge.

Please, Please, Please. If you believe you are, or may be affected by this regulatory problem - PLEASE contact the FMCSA offices and your Congressman. I am only one person, and although I can be quite obnoxious when I need to be, if we have others on this band wagon saying the same things, it can't hurt.

The person I spoke with is Jack Kostelnik at (202) 366-5721.

If you have been stopped by a DOT officer or if you have gotten a DOT number and think you might not need it, PLEASE CALL ME. 716-570-5304.

Mary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The DOT Regulations That Impact Car, Boat and Horse Enthusiasts

By Mary Cedeno

carlos_mary@verizon.net

APPLICABLE OR NOT, HERE THEY COME

Well, here it is. The Federal government has given us an exception to the DOT numbering requirements, and they gave their guidance describing who exactly gets the exception. Both are available for review online by anyone who would like to look at them.

[Note: This will open in a new browser window.]

(http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?rule_toc=759&section=390.3&section_toc=1738).

And then we have the enforcement agent.

It appears that it’s too difficult to determine who DOES need a DOT number and who does not, so DOT enforcement has decided to just make EVERYONE get one….even though the regulation stipulates hobbyists such as ourselves don’t need one.

It’s the equivalent to hauling in all the redheads on the block because someone saw a redhead committing a crime. If the cops did this, they would be in the wrong and there would be many, many people pointing it out. So where is all the fuss? Why isn’t anyone saying anything? I think folks are intimidated and afraid to speak out. After all, the enforcement officer wields a lot of power over the average driver and they CAN make your life difficult - if only for a short time.

In the end, we hobbyists are subject NOT to the actual regulations, but to the INTERPRETATION by the officer who stops us on any given day, in any given state. And, although our US Constitution has other plans in mind, it appears that any officer in any state can simply write law through their enforcement activities. Just because we may be right does not mean we won’t get stopped by an officer somewhere who sees the rules/regulations differently.

If you ARE just a hobbyist and do not write off your expenses, and you want to take the exception, I suggest you not only carry a copy of the regulation and exception, but read it and understand it so you know why you are exempt, because it sounds to me like the officers on the road are going to test your knowledge.

Oh, and, if you call a DOT help line, they don’t even know about the exception. They insist if you’re over 10,000 lbs you must have a number.

-now here’s my caveat, I am NOT a regulatory expert or a lawyer. What I have put in this article are my observations and assessments as I see them. You need to open the books and read the regulations for yourself. If you have questions about what you are reading, you need to call your State, local, or whatever office and find out the answers.

Stay safe on the roads.

DOT REGULATIONS in a nut shell

The DOT regulations are FEDERAL regulations which the States have adopted and are paid to enforce. The States are required to enforce these registration requirements as a condition for receiving Motor Carrier Safety Assistance Program (MCSAP) funds. I have contacted many of the DOT offices in the eastern states, including NY, PA, VA, NC, SC and WV. All of these states have adopted the federal regulations regarding DOT numbering, as written.

The regulation in question is 49 CFR 390 – this regulation stipulates the applicability of the requirements for Motor Carrier ID Numbering. The DOT numbering system is not what gives me heartburn, it’s the FMCSA Safety Requirements that comes with them, including keeping the log book, safety training, drug testing, annual log reviews, etc and so on…obviously meant for COMMERCIAL companies. The exception and the guidance follows:

Under 390.3(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to -

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

In the interpretation section, Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

HOBBY OR BUSINESS?

If someone is driving their race car to the race track to bracket race, and they have supplier decals plastered all over the car for endorsement money, if they claim any winnings as regular income and do not write off their expenses on their taxes, is that person subject to the DOT Motor Carrier ID numbering requirements? Well, I guess the answer would really depend on the interpretation of part (2) of the Guidance, and if the officer believes you are really just a hobbyist.

I spoke with two different Federal DOT officers, one in WV and one in NY. I asked the same question of both…What if a person is a member of a car club and the club obtains money from sponsors, the car is required to run the decals of the sponsors. The prize money for anyone who wins is made up partly of the money the club obtained from sponsors and partly from membership dues. Now, is that considered corporate sponsorship? BOTH of the agents I spoke with told me no, that would be prize money and the exception would still apply if they claimed it as regular income and did not write off expenses as part of a business.

Well it makes sense if you think about it, because the racer is just a “once in a while, run your car down the track” racer. He is not in business, like John Force, or even Paul Gast. He is simply trying to recoup some of his funds from his hobby. In fact, even if the bracket racer raced EVERY week, according to the exception, as long as he claimed his winnings as regular income and did not write off his expenses and had no corporate sponsorship, he would STILL be exempt from the DOT MC ID Numbering regulations, and those dreaded FMSCA safety certification requirements.

So, part of the problem appears to be, how does the officer stopping you know which the case is? And, how do you, as the one being ticketed and potentially impounded, prove to the officer that you are simply a HOBBY racer and not in business or under a corporate sponsorship?

The tax man would not think twice about pointing out to you that what you do is a hobby - not a business. But the DOT enforcement officer sees something else. And we, as hobbyists, are stuck in the middle.

CONSEQUENCES OF USDOT NUMBERING

Some of you are wondering, “Wouldn’t it be easier to just get the DOT number and be done with it?”

Well, if you are in business, towing over 10,000 lbs, you have no choice; you must get the DOT number. However, if you are a hobbyist and abide by all the restrictions of the exception noted above, and you still want to get the DOT number, you WILL be subject to the DOT safety regulations just as they apply to the commercial truckers.

If you get the ID number and travel from state to state, you are subject to the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Admins’ Safety Certification. (See Form MC 150A). This is where my heartburn comes from. This MC-150A form requires drivers to keep log books to keep track of Hours - of -Service, for the employer to review the drivers records and keep proof of the review, so on and so forth. There are strict requirements for the log books, it’s not simply writing down your mileage from one place to the next. If you are interested in learning more about these regulations, you can stop at any truck stop and purchase the 661 page “Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations Pocketbook” for about $5. Oh, but don’t forget to grab the $2 (or so) “Official Deluxe Duplicate Copy DRIVER’S DAILY LOG” – because you’ll need that too if you get your USDOT number and intend to travel across state lines (even with your hobby race or show car).

RV’s AND THE USDOT NUMBERING REQUIREMENTS

OK, here’s the rub guys. You can get yourself a nice big toter home and tow your 50’ recreational stacker trailer anywhere you want and you won’t need to worry about those silly little DOT numbers. You can tow it all day long – cover 100ft of road and no worry. No USDOT requirement for RV’s used solely for recreational purposes, if you use them for business purposes, that’s something else.

CDL LICENSING

If your gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross vehicle combined weight (GVCW) are over 26,001 lbs you are most likely required to obtain a Commercial Drivers License (CDL). You might be able to get away with an RV Endorsement if you have an RV, but it varies from State to State and it might be easier just to get the CDL.

However, the CDL licensing may kick additional regulations into play. Please contact your DMV office and ask the questions before you decide to get the CDL.





VehiclesFind out more or Compare Prices on VehiclesAve99.com





Earn Your Technology DegreeEarn Your Technology Degree. Find the Highest Paying Jobs Today. Free Information!www.CollegePodge.com/Technology-Schools




No_Politics asks You to Return to School!Request Free Information on Accredited Online Bachelor's & Master's Degrees. Get Info Now!www.ClassesUSA.com/OnlineDegrees

one more read the Question 21 and Guidence

Even with the Guidance below, supplied by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, hobbyists are being stopped and cited by enforcement officers.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

SO, WHY ARE HOBBYISTS BEING TARGETED?
I asked a question of two different Federal Officers …What if a person is a member of a car club and the club obtains money from sponsors, the car is required to run the decals of the sponsors. The prize money for anyone who wins is made up partly of the money the club obtained from sponsors and partly from membership dues. Now, is that considered corporate sponsorship? BOTH of the agents I spoke with told me no, that would be prize money and the exception would still apply if they claimed it as regular income and did not write off expenses as part of a business. The difference is Corporate Sponsorship is what is paid to an individual whether they win a race or not, endorsement money is based on a driver winning and is therefore PRIZE money.

Part of the problem appears to be how the officer stopping you interprets what he/she is seeing. And, how do you, as the one being ticketed and potentially impounded, prove to the officer that you are simply a HOBBY racer and not in business or under a corporate sponsorship?

Even the people answering the phones at the FMCSA Help Line do not know about this exception and insisted anything over 10,000 lbs combined must have a DOT number. I spoke with supervisor after supervisor, until they finally referred me to the FMCSA Enforcement Office in Washington.

STUCK IN THE MIDDLE
According to the IRS, a business venture needs to have profit as its primary motive and the individuals involved need to spend a substantial amount of time participating in the venture. In order to write off business expenses the business needs to be profitable within three years and have a profit two out of five years with very few exceptions to this rule.

Just because you may have a lot of money invested into it, unless it is specifically performed for PROFIT and your “business” turns a profit in at least two of five years (generally speaking), then you have yourself a hobby, not a business.

So here we are, the hobby racer, seemingly stuck in the middle of two opposing federal rules. But not so, the IRS clearly defines the rules of business, and with the GUIDANCE in question 21 above, the FMCSA has clearly defined “commercial”. But unless the enforcement officer agrees, you will still be ticketed.

CONSEQUENCES OF USDOT NUMBERING
Some of you are wondering, “Wouldn’t it be easier to just get the DOT number and be done with it?”

Well, if you are operating a commercial motor vehicle over 10,000lbs for business purposes, you have no choice, you must get the DOT number. However, if you are a hobbyist abiding by all the restrictions of the exception noted above, and you still want to get the DOT number and cross state lines, you WILL be subject to the DOT safety regulations just as they apply to the commercial truckers.

If you are driving a 26,000 lb or more CMV, you are most likely required to obtain a CDL (commercial drivers’ license). This will kick in even more restrictions, including annual drug and alcohol screening. However, if you are operating an RV - these CDL rules may not apply.

APPLICABLE OR NOT, HERE THEY COME
Well, here it is. The Federal government has given us an exception to the applicability of the DOT numbering requirements; they gave their guidance describing who exactly gets the exception. Both are available for review online by anyone who would like to look at them. And then we have the enforcement agent.

It seems that some of the DOT enforcement officers are unaware of the exception and may have never seen the interpretation in the FMCSA guidance documents. They may be having difficulty determining who IS a business and who is not. So, they appear to be requiring EVERYONE to get a DOT number….even though the regulation stipulates hobbyists as described above, don’t need one.

It’s the equivalent to hauling in all the redheads on the block because someone saw a redhead committing a crime. If the police did this, they would be in the wrong and there would be many, many people pointing it out. So where is all the fuss? Why isn’t anyone saying anything? I think folks are intimidated and afraid to speak out. After all, the enforcement officer wields a lot of power over the average driver and they CAN make your life difficult - if only for a short time.

In the end, hobbyists are subject NOT to the actual regulations, but to the INTERPRETATION by the officer who stops us on any given day, in any given state. Just because we may be right does not mean we won’t get stopped by an officer somewhere who sees the rules/regulations differently.

WHAT CAN YOU DO?
If you ARE just a hobbyist and do not write off your expenses, and you want to take the exception, I suggest you not only carry a copy of the regulation and exception, but read it and understand it so that you can CALMLY explain it to the officer who may stop you. Because it sounds to me like the officers on the road are going to test your knowledge.

If you ARE cited, be sure take the opportunity to go to court to explain the situation and defend yourself. Because if you ARE just a hobbyist, the exemption in the regulations is written for YOU. If you do go to court, you might want to bring your tax records with you as proof.

Although all the States have adopted the federal regulation, be aware that individual States may have additional regulations written in to their traffic laws. It is your responsibility to contact the state where you plan to tow your vehicle and check on the regulations that apply. That is easier said than done of course. I personally was transferred over seven times on the phone when trying to find a DOT officer in one state who could tell me if they had any additional regulations that may apply. I ended up back at the first one who transferred me!

Don’t be shy. Contact your local track owners, state representatives and anyone else who will listen. There is an exception - if it does not apply to hobbyists - then who does it apply to?

RV’s AND THE USDOT NUMBERING REQUIREMENTS
OK, here’s the rub guys. You can get yourself a nice big toter home and tow your 50’ recreational stacker trailer anywhere you want and you won’t need to worry about those silly little DOT numbers. You can tow it all day long – cover 80ft of road and no worry. No USDOT requirements for RV’s used solely for recreational purposes, if you use them for business that’s something else and the regulations would apply.

CDL LICENSING
If your gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross vehicle combined weight (GVCW) are over 26,000 lbs you are most likely required to obtain a Commercial Drivers License (CDL). You might be able to get away with an RV Endorsement if you have an RV, but it varies from State to State and it might be easier just to get the CDL. However, the CDL licensing may kick additional regulations into play. Please contact your DMV office and ask the questions before you decide to get the CDL.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
FMCSA = Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

The specific regulation is 49 CFR 390.3
The FMCSA web site where the regulation and Guidance document are located are at:
www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/390reg.htm

I have been told by a FMCSA rep that ALL states have adopted this federal regulation.
Search Other Motorist Issues


Information
NMA's Real World Driving Tips
NMA's Seven Sensible Signals
Making Sense of Highway Crash Data
Better Roads Save Lives
The Realities Of Racial Profiling
The Supreme Court And Racial Profiling
NMA Efforts To Curtail Racial Profiling
DOT Numbering Requirements
What Determines Traffic Citations?
Signal Retiming Study
Signal Retiming Article
Related Links
School Bus Stop Laws
Very informative page on the laws governing school buses in the US and Canada.
Sponsored Links


VehiclesFind out more or Compare Prices on VehiclesAve99.com





Earn Your Technology DegreeEarn Your Technology Degree. Find the Highest Paying Jobs Today. Free Information!www.CollegePodge.com/Technology-Schools

In case anyone here wonders why here in the Islands we call the mainland Babylon this thread should make it clear.

Very interesting, anybody feel the noose tightening yet?

And no one has yet addressed how you void a DOT number, Not sure you can without severe reprecussions.

And I got this yesterday by email, which is in congress and a in committee, and the bil basicaly says all CMV will need full time trip recorders.


"URGENT!



EOBRs and REAL TIME TRACKING OF TRUCKERS


SENATOR BILL NELSON, one of your lawmakers in the U.S. Senate, serves on the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation committee. On Thursday morning (12/17) the Commerce committee will be voting on S.554, the “Motor Coach Enhanced Safety Act.”



Senator Frank Lautenberg (NJ) plans to offer an amendment to S.554 that will require all trucks to have Electronic Onboard Recorders (EOBRs) installed and will require “real time tracking” of drivers and vehicles.



While we believe Senator Lautenberg has noble intentions, the amendment will not bring the safety benefits that he envisions and will actually create numerous problems. His amendment will be costly, especially for small business, and it brings up numerous privacy concerns for America’s truckers.



Please call and/or fax Senator Nelson TODAY and tell him to “vote ‘No’ on the Lautenberg amendment to S.554.”



The telephone number for Senator Nelson’s Capitol Hill office is (202) 224-5274.



The fax number for Senator Nelson’s office is (202) 228-2183.



----------------------

SAMPLE MESSAGE:



“I am a small business trucker from_____, Florida. As my representative Senator Nelson should vote ‘No’ on the Lautenberg amendment to S.554. I know from firsthand experience that the amendment will not make trucking more safe.



----------------------

1984 only took 25 years to get here.

Can't say we haven't seen this coming for a long time:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post4611784

Do all these DOT regs effect you if you are not comercial and are using a tow dolly on my pickup truck to transport your classic car across state lines (thru Maryland )????

I would say no, you are not earning money from or as a result of that transport, correct?

Right, I'm not earning mony from it at all, Just taking my classic to NJ with me for the summer..I really don't like the tow dolly thing and was about to buy an open car trailer when I read this post,, would it matter if I used a trailer rather that the tow dolly ???..Don't need dot fines

For those of us in FL, I spoke to Lt Morris at the Tallahasee DOT field office today, as well as Debra at the DOT CDL help desk. I now have both their numbers in my ongoing and growing glove box file, lol.

Both of them agreed that as long as this is a hobby, there is no CDL or DOT number needed, and there is no need to stop at a weight station. You are required to stop at the ag station leaving or entering the state. Their definition of it being a hobby is that I do this occasionally for fun and it is not run as a business with deductions for expense. They were both aware of the possibility of prize money.

Debra is actually a racer and laughed at the possibility of me showing a profit like a business would and should.

They both flat out said that my vehicle is an RV, and not subject to DOT CMV compliance.

The conversation was based off of my truck and trailer, a 2005 Dodge dually and a 48' Pace with living quarters. My GVW is 12,200tk and 18,500tr for a CGVW of 30,700. My trailer is not lettered and it is tagged as a trailer, not an RV. Both trailer and truck are registered to me and not a business.

In Tennessee, non-commercial trailers are not even tagged. That's right. No tags on my enclosed car hauler, open car hauler, boat trailer, bike trailer, etc. Ask yourself...........how do you prove ownership without any type of registration papers from the state?