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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: 440challenger]
#432726
08/09/09 05:18 PM
08/09/09 05:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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With 2 breathers I'm thinking he has broke some rings .... pull the breathers and run without them and see if the valley pan still bows up(push it down first) 
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: 440challenger]
#432727
08/10/09 10:47 AM
08/10/09 10:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
cudadon
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131
New Lenox IL
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Quote:
he was having alot of problems with pinging up around 4500 + . I set the timing at 36 total with the heaviest msd springs in the pro billet distributor. It still pinged BAD. He talked to someone and the guy put the timing at 31 degrees total,does that seem right ??????/
Guessing he did some damage to the motor when he was trying to get rid of the ping
What was the INITIAL timing (with no centr. advance)? What color bushing is with the springs?
Unless the the advance plate is LOCKED OUT you add initial + centrifical to get total timing.
Did you check timing @ idle and then @ 3200 rpm?
Don
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#432728
08/10/09 11:05 AM
08/10/09 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
With 2 breathers I'm thinking he has broke some rings
.... pull the breathers and run without them and see
if the valley pan still bows up(push it down first)
 It's probably is wounded and is pinging because it's burning oil. Are the plugs oil fouled?
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#432732
08/12/09 01:56 AM
08/12/09 01:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202
CA
62SAVOY
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202
CA
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Quote:
With 2 breathers I'm thinking he has broke some rings
.... pull the breathers and run without them and see
if the valley pan still bows up(push it down first)
Is he running the breathers into the exhaust with the check valves? He may have had them go bad. I had it happen on my car. Street driven and bulged 2 pretty close back to back time frame. Took the breather hoses and went to free air. Been fine ever since. Mr. P Body did tell me in another post on this to check the check valves and the tubes that go into the exhaust to confirm there is no problems there.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: qwkmopardan]
#432733
08/12/09 03:07 AM
08/12/09 03:07 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Put a nerf football between valleypan and bottom of intake and it will keep from inverting the valley pan.
A nerf football? ... 
This gives the term "band-aid"(the words typically given to the iNfamous pinion-snubber) ... NEW meaning !! ... 
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: 62SAVOY]
#432735
08/12/09 07:51 AM
08/12/09 07:51 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
With 2 breathers I'm thinking he has broke some rings
.... pull the breathers and run without them and see
if the valley pan still bows up(push it down first)
Is he running the breathers into the exhaust with the check valves? He may have had them go bad. I had it happen on my car. Street driven and bulged 2 pretty close back to back time frame. Took the breather hoses and went to free air. Been fine ever since. Mr. P Body did tell me in another post on this to check the check valves and the tubes that go into the exhaust to confirm there is no problems there.
Just for terminology, when a person says breathers
I take that to be it is venting to atmosphere and
if its hooked up to the exhaust I call that a evacuation
system and in this case he stated breathers
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: emarine01]
#432736
08/12/09 12:25 PM
08/12/09 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
I think proper cyl wall fiinish to ring choice is one of the hardest parts of engine building, done right makes major power done wrong makes for lots of blow by, I think thats what makes some builders combos run stronger than others with the same specs, Nerf football....? 
OMG ....x2 ... x100 ...
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: dOrk !]
#432737
08/12/09 06:30 PM
08/12/09 06:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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What is the rest of the engine? Heads, pistons, etc. 36° is a ton of timing for a long stroke big block. Ping can be an issue if too small a cam is used, and once the detonation starts, parts start to change shape. It destroys the rings and the ring lands in addition to blocks and bearings. Are there any pictures of the bores during assembly? It's not hard to see if it's too rough. Too rough means oil contamination in addition to larger ring gaps after they seat... lots of posibilities. Also, no reason to not run a pcv. which might have helped a little anyway.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: mac56]
#432741
08/12/09 10:58 PM
08/12/09 10:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,489
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,489
the boonies
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Quote:
I understand that it could be all of the issues mentioned above but I found out first hand it doesn't take a lot to destroy the valley pan. This picture of the valley pan I just removed. Yes that is a hole(crack). This was all due to my breather caps being to close to the valve cover baffle. They seemed ok but they were not. The engine was and still is running great. This has nothing to do with the pinging but swollen valley pan does not necessarily mean big problem.
hmm, my friend i was talking about also noticed the pcv was really really close to the baffle as well. could just be that simple
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#432742
08/13/09 01:16 AM
08/13/09 01:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202
CA
62SAVOY
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202
CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
With 2 breathers I'm thinking he has broke some rings
.... pull the breathers and run without them and see
if the valley pan still bows up(push it down first)
Is he running the breathers into the exhaust with the check valves? He may have had them go bad. I had it happen on my car. Street driven and bulged 2 pretty close back to back time frame. Took the breather hoses and went to free air. Been fine ever since. Mr. P Body did tell me in another post on this to check the check valves and the tubes that go into the exhaust to confirm there is no problems there.
Just for terminology, when a person says breathers
I take that to be it is venting to atmosphere and
if its hooked up to the exhaust I call that a evacuation
system and in this case he stated breathers
Mr P. Body
You are correct in that. Just I am used to dealing with customers at work who call something what it is either attached to or not even close to what it is. I just figured a little easier if kinda described was all.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: qwkmopardan]
#432744
08/13/09 03:14 AM
08/13/09 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Home of the 149mph Nerf Football
JUST THINK Dan .. if you corrected the issue that causes the ballooning .. your car might run 155 or best-er ! ..... seriously.
Has anyone ever "tested" to see how much crankcase pressure it takes to balloon up a valley pan ? .... say in a completely sealed-up engine.
But any engine I have seen has either two breathers OR one breather and a PCV ....OR a single or dual evac system.
It would take some severe(and I mean SEVERE) blowby to do as you suggest. Either bad rings, broken ring lands or a hole in piston(s).
But in the end .. you will butter-your-bread as you see fit.
 ....
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: aarcuda]
#432745
08/13/09 05:57 AM
08/13/09 05:57 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I understand that it could be all of the issues mentioned above but I found out first hand it doesn't take a lot to destroy the valley pan. This picture of the valley pan I just removed. Yes that is a hole(crack). This was all due to my breather caps being to close to the valve cover baffle. They seemed ok but they were not. The engine was and still is running great. This has nothing to do with the pinging but swollen valley pan does not necessarily mean big problem.
hmm, my friend i was talking about also noticed the pcv was really really close to the baffle as well. could just be that simple
It really was that simple for me. The breathers seemed ok when I put them in but there was enough vertical movement that they could work them selves down to the baffle. I also don't understand why someone would think normal crank case pressure without anything wrong couldn't swell .013 tin. It will push out seals.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: mac56]
#432746
08/13/09 07:13 AM
08/13/09 07:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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The key phrase is "normal crankcase pressure". The force required is beyond "normal" and indicates a problem with ring seal. Many times the engines run well enough for the owners. Some still ascribe to "lose is fast". But the truth is ANY pressure in the crankcase is the result of power escaping past the rings or gaskets. An engine that pushes out gaskets and has pressure fed leaks all over is not a good running engine. Just might be "good enough" for some owners/racers.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: moper]
#432747
08/13/09 07:59 AM
08/13/09 07:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,503
NJ
440challenger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,503
NJ
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I'll be getting the specs for the motor today. He had a shop build it for him. I think the breathers too close to the baffles could indeed be the problem,there is virtually no room under them. But that doesn't fix the timing issue. The balancer, he cant read the name of it with it on the car but its black with a red anodized center section. Will post back with specs. Thank you guys 
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: emarine01]
#432751
08/13/09 07:58 PM
08/13/09 07:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
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Quote:
Well I had to measure the installed clearance from my breather nipple to the baffle and found less than a 1/16, I thru a vac gauge on it and get 2.5" @ 1200 rpm, pull it back so its almost coming out of the rubber and get 3" so there is definitely something to it, I will grind another 1/16 off the nipple for now and hunt a shorter breather, who would of thought  and we weren't having any back pressure problems but like having more 
Done the same thing plus gave the baffle a little tweak.
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Re: crankcase pressure/ blowing up valley pan
[Re: mac56]
#432752
08/13/09 08:48 PM
08/13/09 08:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,503
NJ
440challenger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,503
NJ
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Ok its a stroker 440 . 499ci Powerforce 90013 balancer??? SRP psitons at 10.5.1 comp. eddy heads. crane gold roller rockers 1.5 Crane hydro roller.689541 Cam specs here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-689541?part=CRN-689541&autoview=skuMSD pro billet dizzy with 6al QUick fuel 850 w/ eddy rpm intake
Last edited by 440challenger; 08/13/09 08:50 PM.
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No evac on this,just two breathers
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