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Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk #382540
07/21/09 09:22 PM
07/21/09 09:22 PM
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Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt Offline OP
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My engine is apart getting a new block and pistons. Took everything in yesterday and they told me that my K1 crank that had 5 passes on it is cracked in 20 places with the biggest being over a inch long and the crank is bent.

My question is what could have caused this? I had Reher-Morrison perform the balance on it when it was new so they should have known if it was bent, right? I pulled the motor out because the oil pressure was getting low and it kept lugging down and stalling to find the center three main bearings with what looked to be overheated. The block had the center three caps were splayed and I had replaced the outer allen head holts with grade 8 bolts because I couldn't torque the allen heads.

So what came first? Was the line hone distorted from the now fully torqued main caps, or was the crank bent to begin with? The crank is junk and will need to be replaced but I am curious as to why this happened. It's my first bent crank and it's almost brand new. Here is a pic of the main bearings.

5367338-IMG_0234.JPG (278 downloads)

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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382541
07/21/09 09:29 PM
07/21/09 09:29 PM
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emarine01 Offline
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Ya got some pics of the piston tops and close ups of 3,5,2,4 plugs, looks like heavy detonation to me

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382542
07/21/09 09:32 PM
07/21/09 09:32 PM
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440Jim Offline
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Those bearings look really bad.
Did everything have 5 passes on it since machined? (block, rods, pistons, bearings, etc?)
It would be good to see the assembly blue print sheets with all the measurements taken (checked). But detonation can kill things too.

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: 440Jim] #382543
07/21/09 09:37 PM
07/21/09 09:37 PM
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I think he had water in his oil, from a cracked block IIRC.

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382544
07/21/09 09:40 PM
07/21/09 09:40 PM
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Quote:

The block had the center three caps were splayed and I had replaced the outer allen head holts with grade 8 bolts because I couldn't torque the allen heads.






This is a red flag for me, don't really know what it means.The main cap bolts or studs should be torqued the same while being line bored as they are while being run. Other than that it looks like assembly error to go that bad that fast. Insufficient bearing clearance?

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382545
07/21/09 10:09 PM
07/21/09 10:09 PM
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Quote:

My engine is apart getting a new block and pistons. Took everything in yesterday and they told me that my K1 crank that had 5 passes on it is cracked in 20 places with the biggest being over a inch long and the crank is bent.

My question is what could have caused this? I had Reher-Morrison perform the balance on it when it was new so they should have known if it was bent, right? I pulled the motor out because the oil pressure was getting low and it kept lugging down and stalling to find the center three main bearings with what looked to be overheated. The block had the center three caps were splayed and I had replaced the outer allen head holts with grade 8 bolts because I couldn't torque the allen heads.

So what came first? Was the line hone distorted from the now fully torqued main caps, or was the crank bent to begin with? The crank is junk and will need to be replaced but I am curious as to why this happened. It's my first bent crank and it's almost brand new. Here is a pic of the main bearings.




Worst set of bearings I have ever seen from a 5 pass motor. Looks like insufficient bearing clearance likely caused by a bent crank or improper torque either at assembly or when machining was done.

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: 10sec440] #382546
07/21/09 10:13 PM
07/21/09 10:13 PM
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Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt Offline OP
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What is really wild is that the two main bearings on the ends looked fine. There was no detonation with 34* total timing with 11.5to1 compression with 110 octane race fuel. No water in the oil either, at least not visible. I'm having a hard time with this. Everything was new except the block. I took a assembly out of the block, and put this assembly in. Kept the main studs the same and changed the outer bolts on the splayed caps. Had .0024 main bearing clearance.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382547
07/21/09 10:23 PM
07/21/09 10:23 PM
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Barnstorm Offline
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You can drive yourself nuts trying to analyse motor autopsy's. Some are real apparent, some drive U crazy. We've all been broke and U just plan the next one.

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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Barnstorm] #382548
07/21/09 10:28 PM
07/21/09 10:28 PM
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Chino Valley
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I'd lok REAL hard at that block before I put anything else in it.

It would be hard to pin it on the block, crank or assembly, but the crank is dead, assembly will be new, so that block better look perfect before reuse...

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: RodStRace] #382549
07/21/09 10:36 PM
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Whatwas the max rpm and was it a 4" crank?

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: emarine01] #382550
07/21/09 11:03 PM
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From the looks of those brgs. I'd say that those journals got real hot. That kind of heat will bend the crank. I have a 427 crank on the bench at work that wasn't hurt as bad as those brgs. and it pulled 0.050" on the center and 0.046" on #4

Randy

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382551
07/22/09 12:05 AM
07/22/09 12:05 AM

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it's very unlikely that the crank was bent. had it been, they would have never been able to balance it. it appears that a number of things could have gone worng with the engine after seeing the pictures of the bearings. what do the rod bearings look like front and back?
severe detonation, oiling issues, bearing clearances and many more things come to mind. as mentioned, changing fasteners (and torque loads) on the mains could also be a likely suspect. what condition is the block in now?

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382552
07/22/09 01:25 AM
07/22/09 01:25 AM
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Quote:

What is really wild is that the two main bearings on the ends looked fine. Had .0024 main bearing clearance.




I think this proves it was an assembly error or a parts error. If it had have been oil related or a bent crank, all the mains would have been wiped out.I agree I'd like to see the rod bearings.
It had .0024" clearance actually measured with bore guages? Or Plasiguage?

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: 10sec440] #382553
07/22/09 06:46 AM
07/22/09 06:46 AM
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Jacob Pitt Offline OP
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The rod bearings looked good as well. They were a little messed up from the junk from the main bearings. I suspected that the three center main caps were the culprit once I pulled it down. I assume the outer bolts never were torqued to begin with on the original build. This block is not being reused. I have a tall deck R3 at the machine shop right now. It was a 4.00 crank and it saw 7000rpm two times.
Dan I'll be calling you.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382554
07/22/09 07:03 AM
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I have dealt with a four bolt converted block some, and in that block if not torqued properly the center three caps do change every dimension in the short block. Until you torque them all down, the crank usually won't even turn. so, that makes me think that the linehone should have performed with the maincaps tprqued the same as in actual use. When things heat up, that kind of things happen, incuding the cracks in the crank. I don't think the crank caused it.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: jyrki] #382555
07/22/09 09:57 AM
07/22/09 09:57 AM
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I agree with JRYKI. This is especially true on stock block small blocks. You'd be amazed at how much those lower ends move around based on torque. They are really not great candidates for 4 bolt conversion. My own opinion is its better to use a good ProGram 2 bolt cap and studs than a 4 bolt conversion on the stock block stuff.

I am sorry to hear of the damage. It sucks to go thru so much to have it live only a few passes. It does seem to be something other thn the crank failing however. My guess is the center of the crank was not supported by the three changed center caps and it was flexing severley.

Good luck with your new build and just chalk it up to experience and move on to a bigger better engine.


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Post deleted by Defbob [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382556
07/22/09 10:04 AM
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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk #382557
07/22/09 10:16 AM
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Thanks for all the info guys. I'm trying to be the best engine builder I can be, but being young without any real engine building mentors around I have to learn by doing. I usually learn the most when something gets messed up. I never had a good feeling about the block in question and should have replaced it but when it is your own money you tend to believe in parts you shouldn't. The new motor will be much better I'm sure.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382558
07/22/09 10:55 AM
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Could a cracked block (possibly weakened by the splayed bolt machine work) cause the same scenario?


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382559
07/22/09 11:03 AM
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First off, you are making good power to run that fast at 3300 lbs. That said, I hope you either have an aftermarket block, or are working with a low deck B motor based around the 400 block. To me, it is all about keeping the rotating weight down to the minimum, and keep a good eye on clearances during assembly. I started off just like you did, not much mentorship. But guys on the board here helped tremendously.
If you don't have mikes and gauges to measure every last part you are going to put together, get them. They are a lot cheaper in the long run than situations like this.
I have a full set of outside mikes, a GOOD dial bore gauge, dial indicators, etc and use them all. Even the best shops can have something slip by.
That said, Reher Morrison is someone I do business with when ever I can. They are great to deal with, and I trust their work and reputation. So that leads me to believe the cause of all this is not with their work. Also, I own their engine assembly books. I suggest you read all their tech articles on line as well.
You have suffered the pain and expense of a motor gone sour, now it is time to reap the rewards of a very well done build! A new plan for a shortblock is in order, so ask what the guys are running.
My personal favorite is like 440jims 512 lowdeck combo, a 512 cube 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore lowdeck motor with a very light bobweight. An aluminum rod motor set up this way with aluminum caps, and a girdle will handle about anything you can throw at it and live due to a bobweight of about 2000 grams. A RB motor like mine comes in at 2432 and is steel rod, and flexes the megablock I have bad enough to cause me grief. It lives, makes great power, but I would be better off with a lowdeck 4.5 bore deal!
Last, but not least, is oil control and flow. Did you ever have even a small dip in oil pressure during braking? all oil passages the proper size, at least 10 psi per 1,000 rpm? minimum 15w40 or preffered 20w50 race oil? A good pan with a side bucket? All this is important, and I paid money in the form of hurt parts to learn it.

Last edited by gregsdart; 07/22/09 11:08 AM.

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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: gregsdart] #382560
07/22/09 12:12 PM
07/22/09 12:12 PM

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Quote:

First off, you are making good power to run that fast at 3300 lbs. That said, I hope you either have an aftermarket block, or are working with a low deck B motor based around the 400 block. To me, it is all about keeping the rotating weight down to the minimum, and keep a good eye on clearances during assembly. I started off just like you did, not much mentorship. But guys on the board here helped tremendously.
If you don't have mikes and gauges to measure every last part you are going to put together, get them. They are a lot cheaper in the long run than situations like this.
I have a full set of outside mikes, a GOOD dial bore gauge, dial indicators, etc and use them all. Even the best shops can have something slip by.
That said, Reher Morrison is someone I do business with when ever I can. They are great to deal with, and I trust their work and reputation. So that leads me to believe the cause of all this is not with their work. Also, I own their engine assembly books. I suggest you read all their tech articles on line as well.
You have suffered the pain and expense of a motor gone sour, now it is time to reap the rewards of a very well done build! A new plan for a shortblock is in order, so ask what the guys are running.
My personal favorite is like 440jims 512 lowdeck combo, a 512 cube 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore lowdeck motor with a very light bobweight. An aluminum rod motor set up this way with aluminum caps, and a girdle will handle about anything you can throw at it and live due to a bobweight of about 2000 grams. A RB motor like mine comes in at 2432 and is steel rod, and flexes the megablock I have bad enough to cause me grief. It lives, makes great power, but I would be better off with a lowdeck 4.5 bore deal!
Last, but not least, is oil control and flow. Did you ever have even a small dip in oil pressure during braking? all oil passages the proper size, at least 10 psi per 1,000 rpm? minimum 15w40 or preffered 20w50 race oil? A good pan with a side bucket? All this is important, and I paid money in the form of hurt parts to learn it.





Quote:

The rod bearings looked good as well. They were a little messed up from the junk from the main bearings. I suspected that the three center main caps were the culprit once I pulled it down. I assume the outer bolts never were torqued to begin with on the original build. This block is not being reused. I have a tall deck R3 at the machine shop right now. It was a 4.00 crank and it saw 7000rpm two times.




Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk #382561
07/22/09 12:45 PM
07/22/09 12:45 PM
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Jacob Pitt Offline OP
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gregsdart this is not my big block I'm having problems with. The 499 in my Challenger that I built 2 years ago is still running great. I did use a Mega block and a good assembly in it. This motor I'm building now is for the Dart Sport I purchased a year and a half ago that came with a stroker small block that I wanted more e.t. out of to go race Super Street and some Quick Door races. I started with all new stuff except the block. Now it will be all new. It did manage to run a 6.42@106 before the problems occured. Next build will be a tall deck R3 and custom dome Diamond pistons.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382562
07/22/09 01:42 PM
07/22/09 01:42 PM
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The way I see your bearings looks like everything was ok at the time you build it, clearance included. the damage on the main bearing and crank is because of two reasons: Crank was completely out of the balance or you have inadecuate front dumper.

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382563
07/22/09 03:20 PM
07/22/09 03:20 PM
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gregsdart Offline
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Quote:

gregsdart this is not my big block I'm having problems with. The 499 in my Challenger that I built 2 years ago is still running great. I did use a Mega block and a good assembly in it. This motor I'm building now is for the Dart Sport I purchased a year and a half ago that came with a stroker small block that I wanted more e.t. out of to go race Super Street and some Quick Door races. I started with all new stuff except the block. Now it will be all new. It did manage to run a [Email]6.42@106[/Email] before the problems occured. Next build will be a tall deck R3 and custom dome Diamond pistons.



Sorry bout that, missed the part about smallblock. Hope you get it all sorted out!


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #382564
07/22/09 03:48 PM
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"My own opinion is its better to use a good ProGram 2 bolt cap and studs than a 4 bolt conversion on the stock block stuff."

This is also my opinion and exactly what I did with my 416.

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: BobR] #382565
07/22/09 04:24 PM
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Quote:

"My own opinion is its better to use a good ProGram 2 bolt cap and studs than a 4 bolt conversion on the stock block stuff."

This is also my opinion and exactly what I did with my 416.






I have read this same thing many times, Im using good caps, and a hughes main girdle on my stroker build...

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: 10sec440] #382566
07/22/09 05:53 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

The block had the center three caps were splayed and I had replaced the outer allen head holts with grade 8 bolts because I couldn't torque the allen heads.






This is a red flag for me, don't really know what it means.The main cap bolts or studs should be torqued the same while being line bored as they are while being run. Other than that it looks like assembly error to go that bad that fast. Insufficient bearing clearance?


I would expect this to be the problem. And since it is the 3 center caps that are splayed. That is why they look like they do. JMO

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: Moparnut426] #382567
07/22/09 07:04 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

"My own opinion is its better to use a good ProGram 2 bolt cap and studs than a 4 bolt conversion on the stock block stuff."

This is also my opinion and exactly what I did with my 416.






I have read this same thing many times, Im using good caps, and a hughes main girdle on my stroker build...


, third season on pro gram 2 bolt caps w/studs turning in the 7ks stock 59* block stroker, its the major thrust thickness that spooks me

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: emarine01] #382568
07/22/09 09:25 PM
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THE crank is craked in 20 places.you guys say the main caps? the only way to do that is UNWANTED HARMONIC

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is j [Re: cbarracuda] #382569
07/22/09 09:35 PM
07/22/09 09:35 PM
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We tore down a 440 marine engine with a similar failure due to detonation from old fuel and clogged cyl head cooling passages, cracked the crank in a dozen places and tried to knock out the center main cap, the damage looked just like the posted pics

Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382570
07/24/09 07:11 PM
07/24/09 07:11 PM
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We would lean toward detonation or very high cylinder pressure,you can detonate a engine with 10.0 cr on race gas,there are several causes to look at ,dyno testing with wideband o2 is a must.if the problem was oil supply related ,the end mains and the rod bearings would show lack of lube,if the problem was damper related ,it would show on the end mains,also install wideband o2 in car.


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Re: Got a call from my machine shop today K1 crank is junk [Re: Jacob Pitt] #382571
07/24/09 11:00 PM
07/24/09 11:00 PM
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Wichita Kansas
CH3NO2 Offline
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The block had the center three caps were splayed and I had replaced the outer allen head holts with grade 8 bolts because I couldn't torque the allen heads.

If the bolts were replaced after the line hone...that was the problem.


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