Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - Moparts Forums

Register Log In Moparts Forums Moparts Question and Answer Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover

Print Thread

Page 2 of 3

1

2

3

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: W5Duster436] #258861 03/19/09 02:10 PM 03/19/09 02:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point? If you could put the stop in and have it stop at 10 before, rotate and have it stop at 10 after... then your balancer did not slip. Having a Stop be able to stop at 10 is not as easy as writing it. Plus using this method if the balancer is off you will now need to use a new place on the pointer as zero vs. just using the new mark on the crank (the way I just typed it above). Marking the balancer is a better method. Quote: I can see it being off a little bit just from the chain tension when one goes from clockwise to counterclockwise? Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: 64Post] #258862 03/19/09 02:14 PM 03/19/09 02:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: "So what are the details of the fuel system, pump carb LINE SIZE? " Ya 64Post, he's got the fuel line size right! Fastest 300

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258863 03/19/09 02:29 PM 03/19/09 02:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either. The main objective I need is to find out whether the 0 mark on the timing cover is indeed TDC. I guess I can see detecting whether the balancer has slipped by utilizing another point. I appreciate all your help! Is there any possible way that I can utilize a 3/8" fuel line to detect TDC? '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: W5Duster436] #258864 03/19/09 02:34 PM 03/19/09 02:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: Quote: Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either. The main objective I need is to find out whether the 0 mark on the timing cover is indeed TDC. I guess I can see detecting whether the balancer has slipped by utilizing another point. I appreciate all your help! Is there any possible way that I can utilize a 3/8" fuel line to detect TDC? Only if it is solid, will not crush, and will not move when you crank the motor over. here is picture of a spark plug piston stop. From Comp cams $8.95 but I would use a locknut on it while using it. Summit sells one. Just remember to hand crank slowly. Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: RapidRobert] #258865 03/19/09 03:03 PM 03/19/09 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: Quote: Has decent pull but still struggles getting up to 7K even more going from 2nd to 3rd. That is straight thinking to K.I.S.S. & go thru the basics & I am guessing here but with that symptom I would want to check my fuel psi as I go thru the traps & see if I have at least several lbs of pressure. It could be valve float & ign issues which would show up at a certain high rpm(in any gear) as the load would pretty much be the same in 1st as in 2nd but for it to act differently in 2nd is making me think fuel starvation but I am out on a limb here. Stay in touch Actually I just realized I forgot to respond to this point about fuel starvation. I thought that initially was part of the problem and went out and held the car at 5K rpm in first gear no real load for about 10 seconds then hammered down and it still struggled to hit 7k. Eventually I'll figure it out but man all this sure has me stumped for the time being. '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: W5Duster436] #258866 03/19/09 03:09 PM 03/19/09 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Well another thing to consider is valve springs and valve float. How strong is the springs and and how old are they? Be careful going with a larger line size with a marginal pump. It can make things worst. Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258867 03/19/09 03:25 PM 03/19/09 03:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: Well another thing to consider is valve springs and valve float. How strong is the springs and and how old are they? Here's the deal on that. Yes it may very well be the problem too. I initially thought of this and RobX4406 and I have hashed it out about a week on this. The cam mfg (Cam dynamics) originally called out for dual springs with 112 seat pressure @ 1.650 installed height. The springs were installed this go around it seems at 1.70 installed height. Rob said there was no way this was enough seat pressure for the cam and I also looked up the exact same grind from Comp cams and they called out for a spring with a bit more seat pressure but after calling them they informed me that indeed their original spring was a typo and only actually had 115 seat pressure and they now recommend their 928 springs. This would require me to remove the heads and have a ton of more work done of them. The main deal though is that I cheaped out and didn't even think about replacing the springs when I should have. The engine was built in 87'-'88 time frame and only had about 100 miles put on it by the kid I sold it too. He took the engine out and let it sit for 5-6 years before I got it back. Of course he left the rockers on during this time but I had the heads sitting for another good couple of years with no rockers on them. I didn't even think about springs sitting for that long until all this started happening. I guess the bottom line is that they very well indeed could be most of the problem but I knew these other issues were there too so wanted to save the hardest part for last as it will be a nightmare removing the heads with these supercomps in. '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: W5Duster436] #258868 03/19/09 03:34 PM 03/19/09 03:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point? yes, so when you go halfway between the distance between your 2 marks that is exact TDC(whether it has slipped or not) & if that point is right under the O on the timing tab then it has not slipped nor is their any machining errors in the crank keyway and the chain has the same amount of slack on either side(in effect) so it balances out as it is pulled tight one way then pulled tight the other way so it does not interfere with the accuracy of our procedure. Yes as 440sixpack said if 5btdc is into the dwell area of the piston(close to TDC) my directions would make an inaccurate test (its been awhile since my last one) but 10 before & after would for sure be safe(& I would think alot easier) as you dont have to do any measuring of distances or mark anything, if you get 10 before & 10 after you're good, if you get 10 before & it hits at 8 after then 1 degree BTDC on the timing tab is true TDC live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: RapidRobert] #258869 03/19/09 03:38 PM 03/19/09 03:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: Quote: Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point? yes, so when you go halfway between the distance between your 2 marks that is exact TDC(whether it has slipped or not) & if that point is right under the O on the timing tab then it has not slipped nor is their any machining errors in the crank keyway and the chain has the same amount of slack on either side(in effect) so it balances out as it is pulled tight one way then pulled tight the other way so it does not interfere with the accuracy of our procedure. Yes as 440sixpack said if 5btdc is into the dwell area of the piston(close to TDC) my directions would make an inaccurate test (its been awhile since my last one) but 10 before & after would for sure be safe(& I would think alot easier) as you dont have to do any measuring of distances or mark anything, if you get 10 before & 10 after you're good, if you get 10 before & it hits at 8 after then 1 degree BTDC on the timing tab is true TDC Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC. Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: W5Duster436] #258870 03/19/09 03:40 PM 03/19/09 03:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver 64Post master
64Post master Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver	If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool. Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded. Last edited by 64Post; 03/19/09 03:41 PM.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258871 03/19/09 03:44 PM 03/19/09 03:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC. As soon as I posted it I realized what I had said. LOL Like stated before my brain is not in full gear today. Too many other distractions. '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258872 03/19/09 03:47 PM 03/19/09 03:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC. Since you put it like that it took ~ 3 seconds of thinking about it to figure it out. I am so embarrassed, I'm thinking of cam degreeing (I think ) live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: 64Post] #258873 03/19/09 03:47 PM 03/19/09 03:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool. Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded. Yeah wish I could do that but using the 928 springs the installed height has to go to 1.880 and the seats have to be machined to accomodate the wider spring. At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads. '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: 64Post] #258874 03/19/09 03:49 PM 03/19/09 03:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool. This is just one of the tools he sells for the small block. ~$63 Quote: Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded. Don't confuse him he will actually try to figure how to do that! Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: W5Duster436] #258875 03/19/09 03:51 PM 03/19/09 03:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver 64Post master
64Post master Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver	Quote: Quote: If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool. Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded. At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads. I like that line of thought much better...

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov [Re: 64Post] #258876 03/19/09 03:56 PM 03/19/09 03:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana W5Duster436 OP master
W5Duster436 OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,084 Indiana	Quote: Quote: Quote: If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool. Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded. At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads. I like that line of thought much better... I have the original 340 block all this rotating assy came out of which is freshly bored to .060, had the lifter galley plugs put in way back when, and the block is o-ringed from the massive compression those trw's had before I milled half the domes off. My intentions are to build a stroker when I win the lottery or sell the cuda. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a cheapo but the whole idea was to put the engine back almost the way it was so I could take it to the track and see what it would have done since I never got the chance back then. Basically proving to myself that my duster would have mopped the naysayers in my town. '70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: RapidRobert] #258877 03/19/09 04:04 PM 03/19/09 04:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: Quote: Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC. Since you put it like that it took ~ 3 seconds of thinking about it to figure it out. I am so embarrassed, I'm thinking of cam degreeing (I think ) That's ok I did drink my coffee this morning Besides the other problem I have with using the marks on the timing tab is... What if the balancer moved more than the timing marks allow? Lets say it moved 30 degrees and the timing marks only go 12 before and 12 after. You use the 10 btdc method and go the other way and the balancer stops before registering on the timing marks? What do you do then?

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258878 03/19/09 04:13 PM 03/19/09 04:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	If it has slipped a large distance then yes using the timing tab wont work but since it is less work I'd use the timing tab 1st especially since I am confident that his dampener has not slipped. and I am sure glad that the rest of my post was hi tech live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: RapidRobert] #258879 03/19/09 04:21 PM 03/19/09 04:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	I guess we just work differently. To me it is easier to put a piece of tape on the balancer than it is to make the piston stop at 10 BTDC. But I don't think it moved either... Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover [Re: HealthServices] #258880 03/19/09 04:33 PM 03/19/09 04:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Actually I put the marks at 10BTDC then thread the tool into where it is snugly hitting the piston but yes point taken. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Page 2 of 3

1

2

3

Moderated by Al_Alguire, Hotwheelsjr, moparts, not_a_charger, RangerDan440, tboomer

Hop To

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1