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Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover

Posted By: W5Duster436

Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 01:53 PM

Is there a way to find TDC easily with a stop or something without taking the timing cover off etc? I am thinking my balancer may have slipped and wondered the easiest way to detect it.
Posted By: bboogieart

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 01:58 PM

take out number 1 spark plug place thumb over hole bump engine untill you feel pressure building.
Bring the timing marks on the balancer to top dead center there you are.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 02:02 PM

Quote:

take out number 1 spark plug place thumb over hole bump engine untill you feel pressure building.
Bring the timing marks on the balancer to top dead center there you are.



I should have clarified further.

I want to make sure #1 piston is at TDC to check the mark on the HB to ensure it hasn't slipped and matches the timing cover. Usually you need to use a piston stop and a degree wheel etc. which would require the timing cover all off. I wondered if there was a simple way to find TDC on the pison through the spark plug hole without the full hassle.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 02:06 PM

Yes the TDC tool is cheap/simple. put your marks at 5BTDC, screw it in until it firmly contacts the piston, with a breaker bar turn crank CCW until it contacts the piston & it should be at 5ATDC. I also put a plastic vac cap(one of those 5 cent colored rubber ones) on the end to keep from(potentially) nicking the piston. Balancers do not slip very often. What is your situation?
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 02:17 PM

Quote:

Yes the TDC tool is cheap/simple. put your marks at 5BTDC, screw it in until it firmly contacts the piston, with a breaker bar turn crank CCW until it contacts the piston & it should be at 5ATDC. I also put a plastic vac cap(one of those 5 cent colored rubber ones) on the end to keep from(potentially) nicking the piston. Balancers do not slip very often. What is your situation?



Great! I didn't even think about putting it before TDC!

Actually though what if 5 BTDC really isn't 5 if the balancer slipped?

Here comes the long version. I know I have carb issues that I am working out too but the jest of it is that with a 275/275 @ .050 solid cam this thing struggles to hit 7K. When it was first built in the late 80's it would hit 7K instantly. I had my initial timing set to 20 and total at 36 all in at ~2k and noticed that I had a few header tubes look like they had been fairly warm from late timing. I had checked this at night once to ensure I didn't have glowing headers but i think maybe ceramic coating helps hide it a bit. Anyway with a 180 thermostat in it the gauge was also about 2 clicks away from hot. Last night I decided to put about 3-4 more degrees of initial in to get my vacuum (6) up to keep from getting into the PV too soon. I bumped it up a few degrees and it was definitely more responsive and knocked the temp down about 3 clicks into a more normal range. Also got vacuum up to 8.5" at 1100 rpm idle. Took carb down to 72 primary jets (see other threads) and it definitely had a much smoother cruise. Has decent pull but still struggles getting up to 7K even more going from 2nd to 3rd. Just all seems that something is amiss and this may be one of the next logical steps.
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 02:40 PM

How's your ignition system? New, old?
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 02:51 PM

Quote:

How's your ignition system? New, old?



Brand new Mallory Comp SS/32 and 6AL box. Set up for 20 degree initial and 16 mechanical. I bumped it up to about 24 initial last night and dropped my temp about 20-30 degrees. Little snappier on the bottom end and added the extra vacuum but still no tire blowing experience at 3k rpm stomp or fast climb to 7k.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 02:58 PM

Quote:

Has decent pull but still struggles getting up to 7K even more going from 2nd to 3rd.

That is straight thinking to K.I.S.S. & go thru the basics & I am guessing here but with that symptom I would want to check my fuel psi as I go thru the traps & see if I have at least several lbs of pressure. It could be valve float & ign issues which would show up at a certain high rpm(in any gear) as the load would pretty much be the same in 1st as in 2nd but for it to act differently in 2nd is making me think fuel starvation but I am out on a limb here. Stay in touch
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 03:09 PM

Yeah it's driving me crazy too. I have FP regulated at 6.5 psi and am using a Carter mechanical strip pump with regulator. 3/8" pickup and line to the front. I will be adding the in-car fp gauge next week. The pump is the only thing different from 20 years ago. I think I had two holley blue pumps and a fram filter back then. Now mechanical pump. I also checked the vent tube on the tank to ensure it wasn't plugged.
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 03:17 PM

Looks like advancing the initial worked for you.

So what are the details of the fuel system, pump carb LINE SIZE? was any of this changed since it ran good?

Nevermind... I see you posted while I was typing.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

Looks like advancing the initial worked for you.

So what are the details of the fuel system, pump carb LINE SIZE? was any of this changed since it ran good?



See post before yours..
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 03:28 PM

I'm also running a Carter mech, but without the regulator. If I were at sea level I might be in the same boat as you. But since I'm losing 100+ HP up here my need for fuel flow is also decreased.

Until you put it on a dyno or get an in-car gage you could be chasing your tail on this one. I do think it's fuel starvation though. The quicker the car accelerates the harder it is for a mech. pump to suck fuel to the front of the car.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 03:45 PM

Quote:


Actually though what if 5 BTDC really isn't 5 if the balancer slipped?

Yes if it has slipped 5btdc is not actually 5btdc which will make it not show 5atdc when it does hit the stop when you come around the other way. If it has not slipped(& probably hasn't) then the 5btdc is actually 5btdc(if it stops at 5atdc) going around the other way. Using the factory marks just saves you the trouble of rigging up your degree wheel
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 04:08 PM

Quote:

Yes the TDC tool is cheap/simple. put your marks at 5BTDC, screw it in until it firmly contacts the piston, with a breaker bar turn crank CCW until it contacts the piston & it should be at 5ATDC. I also put a plastic vac cap(one of those 5 cent colored rubber ones) on the end to keep from(potentially) nicking the piston. Balancers do not slip very often. What is your situation?




Rapid, I disagree with your procedure for a couple of reasons

If the stop is homemade it may be quite long

If the marks have moved, 5* may not give you enough "room"

5* is not really very accurate because the piston is so close to the top, I.E. the crank is close to "over the top." Much more accuracty is obtained with the piston somewhat further down, so.......

Make yourself a stop or buy one.

MAKE SURE the piston is down, either by looking at the damper/marks or by feeling with a stick/ coat hanger, etc

Install the stop.

Carefully wrench the engine one way until it stops ---Make a temporary mark at TDC

Carefully wrench the engine the OTHER way until it stops. My recollection is that my stop puts the marks at more than 20*.

IF YOU DECIDE to degree the wheel yourself, it is important to use a flexible tape to measure with AND NOT dividers or calipers. This is because if you use dividers, you are measuring the TANGENT distance, and not "around the circle" as with a tape.

Balancers don't slip very often, but they DO slip. I"ve probably found 4 or 5 over the years, one of my old engines "back when" and the others friends. 60's--70's Fords were terrible. I used to do tuneup work at NAS Miramar, and found several Fords

FAR MORE of an issue is a worn timing chain/ sprockets, especialy with the phenolic sprockets. (They are not "gears")
Posted By: Dart 340

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 04:19 PM


I have used a degree wheel without removing the
timing cover. Granted you have to pull the crank
pulley, but not the timing cover....
Posted By: phantomx

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 04:32 PM

I agree with 440sixpack, use a piston stop tool, make temp marks on your balancer using your current TDC indicator. Half way between the marks is your true TDC.
Travis..
Posted By: 71 FJ6 Charger

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 04:38 PM

absorbing
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 04:42 PM



Don't know if this is anymore understandable. but ...


To double check if your pointer is at Zero. Put the piston stop in the Number one cylinder. Make sure piston is nowhere near TDC when you put the stop in.


1. Begin by rotating the crankshaft by hand, until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop.


2. Note the position of the balancer and where the '0' timing mark is pointing . Mark the balancer here. I would use a piece of tape. Maybe draw a arrow as to which edge you are referring to.


3. Next hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and once again at the stop.



4. Look at where the '0' timing mark is pointing. Put a piece of tape here again. This should stop exactly the same distance on the other side of your balancer's TDC mark.’ In otherwords your TDC mark should be exactly between these two marks on the balancer you made. If not your balancer's TDC mark is off.
  • Take a small strip of paper lay it on the balancer
  • mark and cut it to the length between the two tape marks you made.
  • Fold this piece of paper in half,
  • lay the piece of paper on the on the balancer again, between the two marks line up to one edge of the paper to one of the marks.
  • The other edge of the paper is where your TDC on the balancer should be.
  • Mark this new mark on the balancer as your new TDC and don't forget to remove the piston stop.


No degree wheel needed!


Sorry if this complicates it more.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 05:45 PM

Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Brain not functioning today I guess.

Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point? I can see it being off a little bit just from the chain tension when one goes from clockwise to counterclockwise?
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 05:56 PM

Quote:

Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Brain not functioning today I guess.





Do not look at the btdc or atdc or whatever. Just concentrate on where the pointer (zero in your case) is pointing at ON THE BALANCER . Just put the stop in the number one hole, where it stops is not a concern.

Sorry if it seems I am screaming at you. The internet and the way I type may make it seem that way.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 06:10 PM

Quote:



Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point?



If you could put the stop in and have it stop at 10 before, rotate and have it stop at 10 after... then your balancer did not slip. Having a Stop be able to stop at 10 is not as easy as writing it. Plus using this method if the balancer is off you will now need to use a new place on the pointer as zero vs. just using the new mark on the crank (the way I just typed it above).


Marking the balancer is a better method.



Quote:

I can see it being off a little bit just from the chain tension when one goes from clockwise to counterclockwise?



Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 06:14 PM

Quote:



"So what are the details of the fuel system, pump carb LINE SIZE? " Ya 64Post, he's got the fuel line size right!
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 06:29 PM

Quote:


Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either.



The main objective I need is to find out whether the 0 mark on the timing cover is indeed TDC. I guess I can see detecting whether the balancer has slipped by utilizing another point.

I appreciate all your help!

Is there any possible way that I can utilize a 3/8" fuel line to detect TDC?
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 06:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Chain tension has nothing to do with it. The pointer is not connected to the chain, the balancer is not connected to the chain either.



The main objective I need is to find out whether the 0 mark on the timing cover is indeed TDC. I guess I can see detecting whether the balancer has slipped by utilizing another point.

I appreciate all your help!

Is there any possible way that I can utilize a 3/8" fuel line to detect TDC?



Only if it is solid, will not crush, and will not move when you crank the motor over.

here is picture of a spark plug piston stop. From Comp cams

$8.95 but I would use a locknut on it while using it.

Summit sells one. Just remember to hand crank slowly.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Has decent pull but still struggles getting up to 7K even more going from 2nd to 3rd.

That is straight thinking to K.I.S.S. & go thru the basics & I am guessing here but with that symptom I would want to check my fuel psi as I go thru the traps & see if I have at least several lbs of pressure. It could be valve float & ign issues which would show up at a certain high rpm(in any gear) as the load would pretty much be the same in 1st as in 2nd but for it to act differently in 2nd is making me think fuel starvation but I am out on a limb here. Stay in touch



Actually I just realized I forgot to respond to this point about fuel starvation. I thought that initially was part of the problem and went out and held the car at 5K rpm in first gear no real load for about 10 seconds then hammered down and it still struggled to hit 7k. Eventually I'll figure it out but man all this sure has me stumped for the time being.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:09 PM

Well another thing to consider is valve springs and valve float. How strong is the springs and and how old are they?

Be careful going with a larger line size with a marginal pump. It can make things worst.


Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:25 PM

Quote:

Well another thing to consider is valve springs and valve float. How strong is the springs and and how old are they?



Here's the deal on that. Yes it may very well be the problem too. I initially thought of this and RobX4406 and I have hashed it out about a week on this.

The cam mfg (Cam dynamics) originally called out for dual springs with 112 seat pressure @ 1.650 installed height. The springs were installed this go around it seems at 1.70 installed height. Rob said there was no way this was enough seat pressure for the cam and I also looked up the exact same grind from Comp cams and they called out for a spring with a bit more seat pressure but after calling them they informed me that indeed their original spring was a typo and only actually had 115 seat pressure and they now recommend their 928 springs. This would require me to remove the heads and have a ton of more work done of them.

The main deal though is that I cheaped out and didn't even think about replacing the springs when I should have. The engine was built in 87'-'88 time frame and only had about 100 miles put on it by the kid I sold it too. He took the engine out and let it sit for 5-6 years before I got it back. Of course he left the rockers on during this time but I had the heads sitting for another good couple of years with no rockers on them. I didn't even think about springs sitting for that long until all this started happening. I guess the bottom line is that they very well indeed could be most of the problem but I knew these other issues were there too so wanted to save the hardest part for last as it will be a nightmare removing the heads with these supercomps in.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:34 PM

Quote:

Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point?

yes, so when you go halfway between the distance between your 2 marks that is exact TDC(whether it has slipped or not) & if that point is right under the O on the timing tab then it has not slipped nor is their any machining errors in the crank keyway and the chain has the same amount of slack on either side(in effect) so it balances out as it is pulled tight one way then pulled tight the other way so it does not interfere with the accuracy of our procedure. Yes as 440sixpack said if 5btdc is into the dwell area of the piston(close to TDC) my directions would make an inaccurate test (its been awhile since my last one) but 10 before & after would for sure be safe(& I would think alot easier) as you dont have to do any measuring of distances or mark anything, if you get 10 before & 10 after you're good, if you get 10 before & it hits at 8 after then 1 degree BTDC on the timing tab is true TDC
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Okay here is what I am having trouble getting a grasp on. Let's say that the balancer did slip and is off a tad. I rotate to 10* BTDC clockwise and then put on the piston stop. Now I go counter clockwise and it should stop exactly 10* ATDC when it hits the stop. Since the balancer is not likely to slip while doing this manually shouldn't it always come up equidistant on the other side of the starting point?

yes, so when you go halfway between the distance between your 2 marks that is exact TDC(whether it has slipped or not) & if that point is right under the O on the timing tab then it has not slipped nor is their any machining errors in the crank keyway and the chain has the same amount of slack on either side(in effect) so it balances out as it is pulled tight one way then pulled tight the other way so it does not interfere with the accuracy of our procedure. Yes as 440sixpack said if 5btdc is into the dwell area of the piston(close to TDC) my directions would make an inaccurate test (its been awhile since my last one) but 10 before & after would for sure be safe(& I would think alot easier) as you dont have to do any measuring of distances or mark anything, if you get 10 before & 10 after you're good, if you get 10 before & it hits at 8 after then 1 degree BTDC on the timing tab is true TDC



Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC.
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 07:40 PM

If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool.

Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:44 PM

Quote:

Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC.



As soon as I posted it I realized what I had said. LOL

Like stated before my brain is not in full gear today. Too many other distractions.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 07:47 PM

Quote:

Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC.

Since you put it like that it took ~ 3 seconds of thinking about it to figure it out. I am so embarrassed, I'm thinking of cam degreeing (I think )
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 07:47 PM

Quote:

If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool.

Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded.



Yeah wish I could do that but using the 928 springs the installed height has to go to 1.880 and the seats have to be machined to accomodate the wider spring. At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 07:49 PM

Quote:

If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool.



This is just one of the tools he sells for the small block. ~$63



Quote:

Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded.



Don't confuse him he will actually try to figure how to do that!
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool.

Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded.



At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads.



I like that line of thought much better...
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/19/09 07:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you do need to change the springs there is a tool available that allows you to leave the head on. With it you end up changing 4 springs on 2 different cylinders at the same time. It only takes about an hour to change all 16. Mancini sells the tool.

Rule of thumb: If you're running a 5/16 fuel line, you only need a single spring. If you're running a 3/8 fuel line you need a double spring. Oh, and don't forget to line up the dots on the springs and retainers otherwise your spring timing will be retarded.



At this point I'd rather take the engine out and get rid of the trw 2232 pistons and buy some eddy heads.



I like that line of thought much better...



I have the original 340 block all this rotating assy came out of which is freshly bored to .060, had the lifter galley plugs put in way back when, and the block is o-ringed from the massive compression those trw's had before I milled half the domes off. My intentions are to build a stroker when I win the lottery or sell the cuda.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a cheapo but the whole idea was to put the engine back almost the way it was so I could take it to the track and see what it would have done since I never got the chance back then. Basically proving to myself that my duster would have mopped the naysayers in my town.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Think about it. Even if the chain was missing it would not affect finding TDC.

Since you put it like that it took ~ 3 seconds of thinking about it to figure it out. I am so embarrassed, I'm thinking of cam degreeing (I think )



That's ok I did drink my coffee this morning



Besides the other problem I have with using the marks on the timing tab is...

What if the balancer moved more than the timing marks allow?

Lets say it moved 30 degrees and the timing marks only go 12 before and 12 after. You use the 10 btdc method and go the other way and the balancer stops before registering on the timing marks? What do you do then?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:13 PM

If it has slipped a large distance then yes using the timing tab wont work but since it is less work I'd use the timing tab 1st especially since I am confident that his dampener has not slipped. and I am sure glad that the rest of my post was hi tech
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:21 PM

I guess we just work differently. To me it is easier to put a piece of tape on the balancer than it is to make the piston stop at 10 BTDC.

But I don't think it moved either...
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:33 PM

Actually I put the marks at 10BTDC then thread the tool into where it is snugly hitting the piston but yes point taken.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:42 PM

That's if the balancer is not off. Using your method, if you used the tool above, and if the balancer is indeed off, you could continue to screw the bolt in and if it did not stop it would fall into the cylinder.

Go drink some coffee
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:46 PM

I kind of figured that I would put it at 10 BTDC and look in the hole to see how close the piston actually was before putting the stop in. Heck I may just crank slowly and stick a pencil in there or something just to see how close the mark on the balancer shows at zero. It's either gonna be close or not.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:49 PM

Top 5 degrees either way of tdc is hard to see or feel. Don't do what another member did in a past post and broke his pencil in there.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:50 PM

$8.95

Comp cam part number CCA-4795

Summit stocks it.

Order today get it this weekend.

The only mod I would do to it is put a lock nut on it and round the tip in a grinder. Do not put a rubber cap on it. If you back off the screw to remove the tool the cap will fall into the cylinder.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 08:57 PM

Quote:

Top 5 degrees either way of tdc is hard to see or feel. Don't do what another member did in a past post and broke his pencil in there.



Point well taken.
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 09:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Top 5 degrees either way of tdc is hard to see or feel. Don't do what another member did in a past post and broke his pencil in there.



Point well taken.





Even though it's a little dull?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 10:17 PM

Quote:

That's if the balancer is not off. Using your method, if you used the tool above, and if the balancer is indeed off, you could continue to screw the bolt in and if it did not stop it would fall into the cylinder. Go drink some coffee

Correct, It's never going to end , I am getting humbled today but I think I probably need that as I have been a bit full of myself lately and when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Coffee will not touch this
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/19/09 10:50 PM

That's ok I'm getting slapped around pretty good this month outside of Moparts. That's why I rather be here today.
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 12:54 AM

Quote:

That's ok I'm getting slapped around pretty good this month outside of Moparts. That's why I rather be here today.



Okay update.. It appears that the mark is fine and pretty much right on the money. What's really funny is the first time I bumped it to get close to TDC it landed smack dead on the 0 mark and I looked in the hole and it was right on top. Hand cranked it over and it immediately went on the down stroke.

Now's where the fun begins... I decided I had better take off the back bowl on the carb to verify that it had 80's in there and lo and behold what did I find? 86's!!

I put the original 78's from the front in and took it for a spin. I could definitely tell a big difference and it did hit 7K pretty good in first and took a good bit in 2nd to get there but it does only have 3.91's. Now I just need to recheck lash and watch the FP with a mechanical gauge while romping it. I also have a wideband setup coming to dial it in and hopefully will get this thing going great soon!

Thanks for all your help guys!
Posted By: 69 Road Chicken

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 03:22 AM

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 03:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

That's ok I'm getting slapped around pretty good this month outside of Moparts. That's why I rather be here today.



Okay update.. It appears that the mark is fine and pretty much right on the money. What's really funny is the first time I bumped it to get close to TDC it landed smack dead on the 0 mark and I looked in the hole and it was right on top. Hand cranked it over and it immediately went on the down stroke.

Now's where the fun begins... I decided I had better take off the back bowl on the carb to verify that it had 80's in there and lo and behold what did I find? 86's!!

I put the original 78's from the front in and took it for a spin. I could definitely tell a big difference and it did hit 7K pretty good in first and took a good bit in 2nd to get there but it does only have 3.91's. Now I just need to recheck lash and watch the FP with a mechanical gauge while romping it. I also have a wideband setup coming to dial it in and hopefully will get this thing going great soon!

Thanks for all your help guys!




!!!! LISTEN !!!! Nobody pays us to come here and waste time typing out information that some of us learned the hard way so LISTEN UP!!!!


YOU CAN NOT CHECK TIMING MARK ACCURACY BY LOOKING IN A SPARK PLUG HOLE


Now your's may well be accurate but you haven't checked anything. That mark could be 10* or more of TDC and you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking
Posted By: HealthServices

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 05:29 AM

440sixpack, I'm with you...






























Many of us go on here for the easy answer to what sometimes seem like a series of complicated problems. Unfortunately the answer is not always what we want to hear.


What’s funny is if I had to check TDC on a Mopar with the tools I just spoke of, I would have been able to find TDC in less time than I spent on this thread.

Like 440 six mentioned TDC may as well be ok but not by looking down the spark plug hole.
Posted By: 71 FJ6 Charger

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 06:27 AM

Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 11:29 AM

Quote:

!!!! LISTEN !!!! Nobody pays us to come here and waste time typing out information that some of us learned the hard way so LISTEN UP!!!!


YOU CAN NOT CHECK TIMING MARK ACCURACY BY LOOKING IN A SPARK PLUG HOLE


Now your's may well be accurate but you haven't checked anything. That mark could be 10* or more of TDC and you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking



Whoa easy guys!! Unfortunately I do not own my own mac tools truck and I don't have the stop and couldn't find one at any shop in town so ordered it from Summit yesterday. I should have stated that in the update post.

I'll still be checking it next week when the stop arrives. This was just a basic check to see if the harmonic balancer mark even showed up on timing tab at what "appeared" to be near the top on the compression stroke.

I will keep you all updated when the tool arrives and I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 01:51 PM

im thinking its the springs myself. do a compression test and make sure the engine is still good. you probably need to freshen it up
Posted By: 64Post

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/20/09 06:19 PM

Quote:

!!!! LISTEN !!!! Nobody pays us to come here and waste time typing out information that some of us learned the hard way so LISTEN UP!!!!
YOU CAN NOT CHECK TIMING MARK ACCURACY BY LOOKING IN A SPARK PLUG HOLE





Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cov - 03/20/09 06:27 PM

I'm glad I am having a good day today other than the tin gaskets are not sealing my SB(alum)intake but I have a set of fel pro printoseals(#1243) on the way
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/20/09 09:58 PM

Quote:

im thinking its the springs myself. do a compression test and make sure the engine is still good. you probably need to freshen it up



It is fresh.. about 700 miles on it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Easiest way to find TDC without removing timing cover - 03/21/09 02:34 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately I do not own my own mac tools truck and I don't have the stop



You don't need a Mac tools truck. I thought I posted this earlier, it's EASY to make your own stop, especiall if you have a few tools, maybe a welder, tap and die set, or even some JB weld

Take an old plug

Hacksaw off the crimp where the porcelin meets the shell

Put the shell in the vise and drive out the insulator.

Now depending on welder, tap and die set, or JB weld, find a bolt that will go in/ clear through/ out the front. It's been a long time. Seems to me I used to "fit" a 3/8 nut in the rear of the shell and tack it in there, then run a tap clear through.

No reason you could not "test fit the stop in your engine, when you get the bolt a good length, just fill the shell with JB weld and forget about it for about a day.

Instant stop

Here's one I found on the www that someone made:



I'm not sure I like it, looks light it might "wiggle" some but you could build it this way and either let some of the bolt stick out the back and tack weld it in place, or once again, JB weld the thing

This is more like how I used to make mine:

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