What's going on with my clutch?
#2549698
09/13/18 05:26 PM
09/13/18 05:26 PM
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gss
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My A833 won't shift into gear while the car is running unless the back tires are off the ground. Even then it is a little difficult. This is a car that worked great when put in storage in 1991. It has a fresh 440. The original pressure plate was rebuilt. The original aluminum flywheel was resurfaced. The disc is a new. The new crankshaft probably came from an automatic car so I used the pilot bearing for conversion to 4 speed. It did take a little more jostling than usual to get the engine to mate with the transmission. I even took an extra input shaft and made sure it fit in the clutch splines and pilot bearing. It eventually went together fine. I don't think the trans developed a problem from sitting a long time. Could the pilot bearing be grabbing the input shaft somehow? With the back tires off the ground and the clutch disengaged in 4th gear, I can see the clutch disc spin freely when someone turns the back tires. I have a good view of the throwout bearing and that seems fine. What am I missing?
Last edited by gss; 09/14/18 02:47 PM.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2549728
09/13/18 07:18 PM
09/13/18 07:18 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Even though the disc spins freely with the pedal depressed, it might not have enough clearance when running; use a feeler gauge to check the air gap with the pedal fully depressed, .060" minimum.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2549736
09/13/18 07:36 PM
09/13/18 07:36 PM
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GomangoCuda
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In no particular order.
1 bellhousing not aligned to block. Are the block and bell original to each other?
2. Pilot hole in crank not deep enough.
3. Sometimes rebuilt pressure plates are not set properly so that the plate is not parrelel to the flywheel causing one side to drag.
4. Pilot bearing might need to be reamed.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 09/13/18 07:37 PM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2549778
09/13/18 10:39 PM
09/13/18 10:39 PM
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gss
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Even though the disc spins freely with the pedal depressed, it might not have enough clearance when running; use a feeler gauge to check the air gap with the pedal fully depressed, .060" minimum. My eyeball says it was well over 0.080" but I will measure it. Thanks
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2549781
09/13/18 10:58 PM
09/13/18 10:58 PM
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gss
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In no particular order.
1 bellhousing not aligned to block. Are the block and bell original to each other?
2. Pilot hole in crank not deep enough.
3. Sometimes rebuilt pressure plates are not set properly so that the plate is not parrelel to the flywheel causing one side to drag.
4. Pilot bearing might need to be reamed. 1. They are not original to each other. The bell is not aftermarket. 2. I checked this before assembly but didn't make notes. The input shaft seems to spin freely when the car is on jacks and I am turning the back tires in 4th. 3. Possible. I will check. The clutch shop here is usually pretty good. 4. Its not a bushing. I did fit it over the input shaft before driving it into the crank. It does seem to spin fine in the bearing.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2549944
09/14/18 01:11 PM
09/14/18 01:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
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jbc426
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Those are interesting symptoms.
Here's a quick and easy way to verify that your transmission input shaft is not bottoming out in the crank's pilot hole.
Try loosening the 4 bolts that hold the transmission to the bell housing and see if the transmission moves back by itself. If a gap opens up between the trans and the bellhousing, you likely will have to cut/shorten the input shaft.
I had to shorten the input shaft on my 833 to allow it clearance from the bottom of the pilot hole in the crank.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: jbc426]
#2549996
09/14/18 03:27 PM
09/14/18 03:27 PM
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gss
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Those are interesting symptoms.
Here's a quick and easy way to verify that your transmission input shaft is not bottoming out in the crank's pilot hole.
Try loosening the 4 bolts that hold the transmission to the bell housing and see if the transmission moves back by itself. If a gap opens up between the trans and the bellhousing, you likely will have to cut/shorten the input shaft.
I had to shorten the input shaft on my 833 to allow it clearance from the bottom of the pilot hole in the crank. Good idea. Although I would expect they separate slightly. If a 0.030" gap opens up, is that a positive result? How much fore/aft play is in the input shaft? Maybe a better test would be to loosen the bellhousing bolts so the bell can move back 0.060-0.080", not enough that the starter wouldn't engage or come out of its pilot hole, and start it up to see if it shifts better. Now that would be a positive result. Any reason that wouldn't work?
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2550072
09/14/18 07:39 PM
09/14/18 07:39 PM
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John_Kunkel
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When you observed the clutch disc turning freely when the rear wheels were spun, you have a leverage advantage; put the trans in Neutral, have somebody fully depress the clutch pedal and push on the disc with a screwdriver to see if it turns freely.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2550112
09/14/18 09:50 PM
09/14/18 09:50 PM
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GomangoCuda
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1 bellhousing not aligned to block. Are the block and bell original to each other? 1. They are not original to each other. The bell is not aftermarket The factory bell is machined bolted to its block. If you put it on a different block it may need offset dowels to get it concentric with the crank. May or may not be your problem.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2550117
09/14/18 10:06 PM
09/14/18 10:06 PM
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Supercuda
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The factory bell is machined bolted to its block. If you put it on a different block it may need offset dowels to get it concentric with the crank. May or may not be your problem. lol, never heard that one before.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2550139
09/14/18 11:30 PM
09/14/18 11:30 PM
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Supercuda
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Kunkel says a lot of things. No proof though.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2550158
09/15/18 12:28 AM
09/15/18 12:28 AM
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GomangoCuda
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Please explain why Factory Service Manuals say that a replacement bellhousing must be dialed in and corrected with offset dowels.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2550170
09/15/18 01:12 AM
09/15/18 01:12 AM
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gss
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When you observed the clutch disc turning freely when the rear wheels were spun, you have a leverage advantage; put the trans in Neutral, have somebody fully depress the clutch pedal and push on the disc with a screwdriver to see if it turns freely. Okay we did that and I could not budge the clutch disc. I was able to get a 0.064" feeler gauge between the disc and pressure plate but the disc seemed to be tight against the flywheel. When observing the clutch as the pedal is depressed, I noticed that the disc moves away from the flywheel briefly but then settles down against the flywheel almost immediately.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2550291
09/15/18 01:22 PM
09/15/18 01:22 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Kunkel says a lot of things. No proof though. You can lead a horse to water but.............
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2550351
09/15/18 04:57 PM
09/15/18 04:57 PM
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GomangoCuda
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When you observed the clutch disc turning freely when the rear wheels were spun, you have a leverage advantage; put the trans in Neutral, have somebody fully depress the clutch pedal and push on the disc with a screwdriver to see if it turns freely. Okay we did that and I could not budge the clutch disc. I was able to get a 0.064" feeler gauge between the disc and pressure plate but the disc seemed to be tight against the flywheel. When observing the clutch as the pedal is depressed, I noticed that the disc moves away from the flywheel briefly but then settles down against the flywheel almost immediately. Did you check that gap at more than one place? Pressure plate probably still against the disc 180 degrees from there. If so it's broke.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2550670
09/16/18 04:50 PM
09/16/18 04:50 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Sometimes the clutch disc splines are tight on the shaft, some clutch kits supply spline lubricant to avoid that.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2550758
09/16/18 08:41 PM
09/16/18 08:41 PM
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Magnum
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This is a car that worked great when put in storage in 1991. It has a fresh 440. The original pressure plate was rebuilt. The original aluminum flywheel was resurfaced. The disc is a new. The new crankshaft probably came from an automatic car so I used the pilot bearing for conversion to 4 speed.
What order did this happen? Was it put away working after the engine and clutch work? As for the offset dowels. I've checked a few and since I like to get chase things to the middle of their acceptable range. The fact is I've never seen a difference from out of spec to middle of the spec as far as shift quality, clutch engagement etc. GSS's problem is not something offset dowels will fix. Here is a pressure plate with air gap but it can not be put into gear. There is a major drag from the engine to the input shaft or clutch disc. I'd like to 1st confirm the input shaft is not bottomed out in the automatic crankshaft. How about loosening the transmission to bellhousing bolts. Moving the transmission back a 1/4" and check again. If this idea worries you, sandwich something in there and snug the bolts up.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: 70HemiGTX]
#2551578
09/18/18 04:58 PM
09/18/18 04:58 PM
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GomangoCuda
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Sounds like your clutch plate is stuck to your flywheel from sitting. I have had this happen in the Challenger I had years ago. It sat for a few months and the clutch plate stuck itself fast to the flywheel.
Put the car in 4th gear, push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, and hit the starter. It should pop it loose. You may have to rock the car a few times with the starter. Keep the clutch pedal depressed while you rock the car. Also let the car settle to a stop before you hit the starter again.
If not, put the car on jack stands and remove the inspection cover. Have someone depress the clutch pedal all the way to the foor and use a thin piece of aluminum (.030 or so) and try to slide it between the clutch and flywheel.
You may also just tap on the edge of the clutch disc lightly with a hammer and screwdriver (a broad flat one) while the clutch pedal is depressed. It should pop loose. From the original posters first post. With the back tires off the ground and the clutch disengaged in 4th gear, I can see the clutch disc spin freely when someone turns the back tires. I have a good view of the throwout bearing and that seems fine. Doesn't sound like the disc is stuck to the flywheel.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2551708
09/18/18 10:50 PM
09/18/18 10:50 PM
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70HemiGTX
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Sounds like your clutch plate is stuck to your flywheel from sitting. I have had this happen in the Challenger I had years ago. It sat for a few months and the clutch plate stuck itself fast to the flywheel.
Put the car in 4th gear, push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, and hit the starter. It should pop it loose. You may have to rock the car a few times with the starter. Keep the clutch pedal depressed while you rock the car. Also let the car settle to a stop before you hit the starter again.
If not, put the car on jack stands and remove the inspection cover. Have someone depress the clutch pedal all the way to the foor and use a thin piece of aluminum (.030 or so) and try to slide it between the clutch and flywheel.
You may also just tap on the edge of the clutch disc lightly with a hammer and screwdriver (a broad flat one) while the clutch pedal is depressed. It should pop loose. From the original posters first post. With the back tires off the ground and the clutch disengaged in 4th gear, I can see the clutch disc spin freely when someone turns the back tires. I have a good view of the throwout bearing and that seems fine. Doesn't sound like the disc is stuck to the flywheel. Sorry, I was not reading that correctly. Yes there is a different problem.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2552953
09/21/18 05:18 PM
09/21/18 05:18 PM
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John_Kunkel
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I don't have a great explanation for this. If the disc splines were seized, it wouldn't come off the flywheel at all. There is a certain amount of flexibility in the disc center hub. I don't believe the splines are "seized" but might be too tight on the splines. With the pedal depressed, you should be able to pry the disc away from the flywheel surface. I would pull the trans and apply some spline lubricant to the splines before reinstalling.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2552958
09/21/18 05:26 PM
09/21/18 05:26 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Pressure plate fingers are pushing on disc hub? That's worth checking too, seen it happen. Instead of fully depressing the pedal, ease up on the pedal a little to see if it frees the disc.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2558957
10/04/18 04:21 PM
10/04/18 04:21 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Why not just install a pedal stop? A block of wood taped to the pedal where it contacts the floor.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: gss]
#2559070
10/04/18 09:08 PM
10/04/18 09:08 PM
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70sixpkrt
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Pressure plate fingers are pushing on disc hub? That's what it turned out to be. Off to the clutch shop tomorrow. What clutch are you getting? I hope I don't have that problem. I had Mcleod rebuild my Pressure Plate. Haven't installed it yet.
Last edited by 70sixpkRT; 10/04/18 11:02 PM.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: 70sixpkrt]
#2559491
10/05/18 03:59 PM
10/05/18 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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John_Kunkel
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I'm surprised that this didn't cause a noticeable noise, since it originally happened "while the car is running". Every time I've seen this happen the fingers contacting the disc made a loud clanking sound.
My experience with this has been with hydraulic clutch setups where the MC diameter is too large and makes the TO bearing travel too far.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2559753
10/06/18 06:34 AM
10/06/18 06:34 AM
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Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Why not just install a pedal stop? A block of wood taped to the pedal where it contacts the floor. Why not just adjust it to have more free play? Then it wouldn't push the release bearing to far. I didn't see where he said how much pedal free play it has or anyone ask about it.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2560000
10/06/18 06:29 PM
10/06/18 06:29 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Too much free play in the pedal will cause the over-center spring to prevent pedal return.
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Re: What's going on with my clutch?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2560122
10/06/18 10:27 PM
10/06/18 10:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Guitar Jones
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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But we don't even know how much there is or how much adjustment is there. It could be a simple adjustment would fix it.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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