What's going on with my clutch?

My A833 won't shift into gear while the car is running unless the back tires are off the ground. Even then it is a little difficult.

This is a car that worked great when put in storage in 1991. It has a fresh 440. The original pressure plate was rebuilt. The original aluminum flywheel was resurfaced. The disc is a new. The new crankshaft probably came from an automatic car so I used the pilot bearing for conversion to 4 speed.

It did take a little more jostling than usual to get the engine to mate with the transmission. I even took an extra input shaft and made sure it fit in the clutch splines and pilot bearing. It eventually went together fine.

I don't think the trans developed a problem from sitting a long time. Could the pilot bearing be grabbing the input shaft somehow? With the back tires off the ground and the clutch disengaged in 4th gear, I can see the clutch disc spin freely when someone turns the back tires. I have a good view of the throwout bearing and that seems fine. What am I missing?

Even though the disc spins freely with the pedal depressed, it might not have enough clearance when running; use a feeler gauge to check the air gap with the pedal fully depressed, .060" minimum.

In no particular order.

1 bellhousing not aligned to block. Are the block and bell original to each other?

2. Pilot hole in crank not deep enough.

3. Sometimes rebuilt pressure plates are not set properly so that the plate is not parrelel to the flywheel causing one side to drag.

4. Pilot bearing might need to be reamed.

My eyeball says it was well over 0.080" but I will measure it. Thanks

1. They are not original to each other. The bell is not aftermarket.

2. I checked this before assembly but didn't make notes. The input shaft seems to spin freely when the car is on jacks and I am turning the back tires in 4th.

3. Possible. I will check. The clutch shop here is usually pretty good.

4. Its not a bushing. I did fit it over the input shaft before driving it into the crank. It does seem to spin fine in the bearing.

Those are interesting symptoms.

Here's a quick and easy way to verify that your transmission input shaft is not bottoming out in the crank's pilot hole.

Try loosening the 4 bolts that hold the transmission to the bell housing and see if the transmission moves back by itself. If a gap opens up between the trans and the bellhousing, you likely will have to cut/shorten the input shaft.

I had to shorten the input shaft on my 833 to allow it clearance from the bottom of the pilot hole in the crank.

Good idea. Although I would expect they separate slightly. If a 0.030" gap opens up, is that a positive result? How much fore/aft play is in the input shaft? Maybe a better test would be to loosen the bellhousing bolts so the bell can move back 0.060-0.080", not enough that the starter wouldn't engage or come out of its pilot hole, and start it up to see if it shifts better. Now that would be a positive result. Any reason that wouldn't work?

Well I loosened the bellhousing bolts and the trans didn't push away from the engine. I might have been able to slip a thin feeler gauge in there somewhere, but I would say the test was negative, but not definitive. After thinking it through, I decided not to start it with the bolts loose. Still no idea why its binding.

When you observed the clutch disc turning freely when the rear wheels were spun, you have a leverage advantage; put the trans in Neutral, have somebody fully depress the clutch pedal and push on the disc with a screwdriver to see if it turns freely.

The factory bell is machined bolted to its block. If you put it on a different block it may need offset dowels to get it concentric with the crank. May or may not be your problem.

lol, never heard that one before.

Laugh all you want.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/973171/re-bellhousing-installation.html

Read John Kunkel's post on that thread. I have seen the same information from other sources.

Kunkel says a lot of things. No proof though.

Please explain why Factory Service Manuals say that a replacement bellhousing must be dialed in and corrected with offset dowels.

I did not check the runout. FWIW, the old engine does not have offset dowels and the transmission worked great on that one. I don't believe the old engine and transmission were together when new, so that would lessen the likelihood of a problem with the new engine, I would think.

Okay we did that and I could not budge the clutch disc. I was able to get a 0.064" feeler gauge between the disc and pressure plate but the disc seemed to be tight against the flywheel. When observing the clutch as the pedal is depressed, I noticed that the disc moves away from the flywheel briefly but then settles down against the flywheel almost immediately.

You can lead a horse to water but.............

Did you check that gap at more than one place? Pressure plate probably still against the disc 180 degrees from there. If so it's broke.

Sometimes the clutch disc splines are tight on the shaft, some clutch kits supply spline lubricant to avoid that.

What order did this happen? Was it put away working after the engine and clutch work?

As for the offset dowels. I've checked a few and since I like to get chase things to the middle of their acceptable range. The fact is I've never seen a difference from out of spec to middle of the spec as far as shift quality, clutch engagement etc.
GSS's problem is not something offset dowels will fix.

Here is a pressure plate with air gap but it can not be put into gear. There is a major drag from the engine to the input shaft or clutch disc.

I'd like to 1st confirm the input shaft is not bottomed out in the automatic crankshaft.
How about loosening the transmission to bellhousing bolts. Moving the transmission back a 1/4" and check again.
If this idea worries you, sandwich something in there and snug the bolts up.

Put a couple of washers on each bolt that is the correct size for the trans bolts between the bell and the trans and see if you can then move the clutch disc.
It sounds to me like the clutch disc is hanging up on the trans input splines or the shaft is bottoming out on the crank. Gene

Sounds like your clutch plate is stuck to your flywheel from sitting. I have had this happen in the Challenger I had years ago. It sat for a few months and the clutch plate stuck itself fast to the flywheel.

Put the car in 4th gear, push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, and hit the starter. It should pop it loose. You may have to rock the car a few times with the starter. Keep the clutch pedal depressed while you rock the car. Also let the car settle to a stop before you hit the starter again.

If not, put the car on jack stands and remove the inspection cover. Have someone depress the clutch pedal all the way to the foor and use a thin piece of aluminum (.030 or so) and try to slide it between the clutch and flywheel.

You may also just tap on the edge of the clutch disc lightly with a hammer and screwdriver (a broad flat one) while the clutch pedal is depressed. It should pop loose.

From the original posters first post.

Doesn't sound like the disc is stuck to the flywheel.

Sorry, I was not reading that correctly. Yes there is a different problem.

I checked the gap between the disc and PP in all 3 openings in the PP. It was about .070" everywhere I could check it. I am unable to get a feeler between the disc and flywheel anywhere. The disc comes off the flywheel briefly when the clutch pedal is pushed but then goes right back to the flywheel. When the clutch pedal is released, the disc again comes off the flywheel briefly before the PP pushes it against the flywheel.

I don't have a great explanation for this. If the disc splines were seized, it wouldn't come off the flywheel at all. If the input shaft was too long, the disc would still slide on the splines so it wouldn't stay tight to the flywheel.

Pressure plate fingers are pushing on disc hub?

There is a certain amount of flexibility in the disc center hub. I don't believe the splines are "seized" but might be too tight on the splines. With the pedal depressed, you should be able to pry the disc away from the flywheel surface.

I would pull the trans and apply some spline lubricant to the splines before reinstalling.

That's worth checking too, seen it happen. Instead of fully depressing the pedal, ease up on the pedal a little to see if it frees the disc.

My son and I took the trans out. The input shaft has plenty of room. Probably 1/2" to spare. Pilot bearing looks good. Looks like the bell has to come off too. Gotta be something wrong with the disc.

At least we can fix some leaks while it is out.

That's what it turned out to be. Off to the clutch shop tomorrow.

Why not just install a pedal stop? A block of wood taped to the pedal where it contacts the floor.

What clutch are you getting? I hope I don't have that problem. I had Mcleod rebuild my Pressure Plate. Haven't installed it yet.

I'm surprised that this didn't cause a noticeable noise, since it originally happened "while the car is running". Every time I've seen this happen the fingers contacting the disc made a loud clanking sound.

My experience with this has been with hydraulic clutch setups where the MC diameter is too large and makes the TO bearing travel too far.

Why not just adjust it to have more free play? Then it wouldn't push the release bearing to far. I didn't see where he said how much pedal free play it has or anyone ask about it.

Too much free play in the pedal will cause the over-center spring to prevent pedal return.

But we don't even know how much there is or how much adjustment is there. It could be a simple adjustment would fix it.

I started out with what I thought was way too much free play and then adjusted some of it out to make sure the clutch was disengaging. I didn't measure it but I would guess it was 4-5 inches initially, enough so the pedal wouldn't return all the way. The clutch shop says the clutch is fine. I will try to get it back in this week but I need to go through the transmission first.