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440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection #246714 03/08/09 10:19 AM 03/08/09 10:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY RoadRunner OP master
RoadRunner OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY	I have a bunch of parts laying around and want to build a new motor for my 69 Road Runner. The car has a 4 speed (18 spline), Dana w/3.54 gears, and super stock springs. No power steering or power brakes, running radial tires. I have a 440 block, standard bore, but will need to be cleaned up, stock crank and rods. For heads, I have stock 915 closed chambers, 452 open chambers and a set of edelbrocks. All out of the box condition other than valve jobs on the iron heads. Is it possible to build a motor to get the car into the 11s without a stroker kit. I am running old TRWs with 12 to 1 now (I have some rod knock requiring an engine swap), and using a 6bbl setup with promax carbs. Car also has headers (not sure on tube size) and 2.5" exhaust all the way to the back. I built this motor 10 years ago using parts I bought 20 years ago. My wife would like to keep the 6bbl, so I am sort of stuck there. I would like to go a little lower on compression ratio to be able to use 93 pump gas, but this isn't an absolute requiement. The only two pieces I am missing are the pistons and a cam. I do have, what I believe to be a MP 509 (old purchase from 15 years ago) cam sitting on the shelf, but haven't checked it out. I also am running a Crane 302H in the car now. Could I use either of these? I have some ideas, but looking for some folks who have used some current offerings. 68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: RoadRunner] #246715 03/08/09 10:25 AM 03/08/09 10:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 8,647 ELYRIA,OH B blownzoom440
blownzoom440 B Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 8,647 ELYRIA,OH	do you have stock or roller rockers? i went 12.3 w/.509 9/1cr but my heads were ported well.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: blownzoom440] #246716 03/08/09 10:31 AM 03/08/09 10:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,145 Central NC gch master
gch master Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,145 Central NC	I would use the edelbrock heads.Some liteweight pistons(ross,je,diamond,etc.)or even kb if you are on a budget. You should be able to run 10.5-1 on pump gas w/alum heads and quite possibly higher. I would match the cam to the compression when you decide what to go with. 1 7/8 headers and 3" would be ideal for your et goal but I think it is still attainable with 1 3/4 headers and 2.5 exhaust. The .509 cam will get beat to death here but if you already have it,try it.I don't know if it will hit 11's but should do low 12's all day.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: gch] #246717 03/08/09 02:03 PM 03/08/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,544 Syracuse,NY CompWedgeEngines master
CompWedgeEngines master Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,544 Syracuse,NY	GCH is correct. You arent going to get 11's without the Edelbrocks, unless you want to sacrifice something else. If it were me, I'd build a 493, have many of those customers combos out there and run easy 11's, but if you dont go that route, you can do it with the 440. The .509 wont get you into the 11's I dont think with your combo, again, at least not without making some other driveability changes. Spend your money on some good pistons, quality machining, and you can get there. Let me know if I can help. Todd Tuohey Competition Wedge Syracuse, NY RIP Monte Smith Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality. WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #246718 03/08/09 10:38 PM 03/08/09 10:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	I would run the Eddy heads and use a good flattop piston set at zero deck height. Use a .039 head gasket to get good quench and shoot for 10.5 to 10.8 comp and with the right cam it will run fine on 92 pump and get you in the 11's. That said I run iron factory 906 heads and use KB quench pad pistons to get 10.0 comp on the .030 over 440 in my 63. I use the MP solid .557 cam and a stock bottom end for the crank and rods. It has put my 3700 lb 63 in the mid 11's @ 116 so I see no reason if you build a 440 with Eddy heads and use a good cam like the MP .557 or even that one that you can get in the 11's with enough gear and converter. Good luck , Ron Last edited by 383man; 03/08/09 10:39 PM.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: 383man] #246719 03/08/09 10:54 PM 03/08/09 10:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,887 USA CrAlt master
CrAlt master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,887 USA	Quote: I would run the Eddy heads and use a good flattop piston set at zero deck height. Use a .039 head gasket to get good quench and shoot for 10.5 to 10.8 comp and with the right cam it will run fine on 92 pump and get you in the 11's. That said I run iron factory 906 heads and use KB quench pad pistons to get 10.0 comp on the .030 over 440 in my 63. I use the MP solid .557 cam and a stock bottom end for the crank and rods. It has put my 3700 lb 63 in the mid 11's @ 116 so I see no reason if you build a 440 with Eddy heads and use a good cam like the MP .557 or even that one that you can get in the 11's with enough gear and converter. Good luck , Ron Which KB's? The 236's? I built a 446 with those and they are set at zero deck. The pad comes out of the hole... I didnt think it would run pump gas and iron heads. I was asked to contribute money to help solve the civil unrest in Egypt, but I suspect it's some sort of pyramid scheme.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: RoadRunner] #246720 03/09/09 08:55 AM 03/09/09 08:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md	I'd use the eddy's w/ the 6-pack. The 509 will get you close to 11's but I think the gear is going to hold you back. 3.91's or 4.10's you be right on the mark. Also keep the 2.5 and just install cut-outs. They take 3 minutes to un-cap and are worth 3-5 tenths. Don't worry about compression that 509 will bleed it off.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: CrAlt] #246721 03/09/09 10:13 AM 03/09/09 10:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: I would run the Eddy heads and use a good flattop piston set at zero deck height. Use a .039 head gasket to get good quench and shoot for 10.5 to 10.8 comp and with the right cam it will run fine on 92 pump and get you in the 11's. That said I run iron factory 906 heads and use KB quench pad pistons to get 10.0 comp on the .030 over 440 in my 63. I use the MP solid .557 cam and a stock bottom end for the crank and rods. It has put my 3700 lb 63 in the mid 11's @ 116 so I see no reason if you build a 440 with Eddy heads and use a good cam like the MP .557 or even that one that you can get in the 11's with enough gear and converter. Good luck , Ron Which KB's? The 236's? I built a 446 with those and they are set at zero deck. The pad comes out of the hole... I didnt think it would run pump gas and iron heads. Chris I did one years ago for a friend , 906's with KB's and an off the shelf cam and it ran fine on 93 octane with 38 degrees total timing . the quench needs to be right on though , I had that set up with .043-.045 , compression was about 10.3 .

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: JohnRR] #246722 03/09/09 12:52 PM 03/09/09 12:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Quote: Quote: Quote: I would run the Eddy heads and use a good flattop piston set at zero deck height. Use a .039 head gasket to get good quench and shoot for 10.5 to 10.8 comp and with the right cam it will run fine on 92 pump and get you in the 11's. That said I run iron factory 906 heads and use KB quench pad pistons to get 10.0 comp on the .030 over 440 in my 63. I use the MP solid .557 cam and a stock bottom end for the crank and rods. It has put my 3700 lb 63 in the mid 11's @ 116 so I see no reason if you build a 440 with Eddy heads and use a good cam like the MP .557 or even that one that you can get in the 11's with enough gear and converter. Good luck , Ron Which KB's? The 236's? I built a 446 with those and they are set at zero deck. The pad comes out of the hole... I didnt think it would run pump gas and iron heads. Chris I did one years ago for a friend , 906's with KB's and an off the shelf cam and it ran fine on 93 octane with 38 degrees total timing . the quench needs to be right on though , I had that set up with .043-.045 , compression was about 10.3 . I use the KB quench pad pistons because I run the open chamber 906's but with the closed chamber 84 cc Eddy's I would use a good flattop piston with nice valve notches run at zero deck height. Then just run the .039 head gasket and get good quech. With the right cam to keep cyl pressure at or under 180 you could run as high as 11.0 comp with the aluminum heads and still run fine on 93 pump. That would be a better setup then I use with my open chamber 906 iron heads by far. Ron Last edited by 383man; 03/09/09 09:26 PM.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: RoadRunner] #246723 03/09/09 02:53 PM 03/09/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY RoadRunner OP master
RoadRunner OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY	Thanks for all the input. I will be looking at pistons this week. Unfortunately a stoker kit is out of the budget for now. Especially hard to justify a new crank and rods, when I have a new standard stroke crank and rods sitting ont he shelf. I like the idea about the exhaust cut outs. I'll see if I can some installed. I assume the Crane cam would be "too big" for this application? I don't recall the details on it. Just curious if its reusable. I have also been thinking about going to 4.10 gears since I trailor the car to the nationals now. I trailer it so my wife and daughter can have some freedom while I scoot around in the car there. 68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: RoadRunner] #246724 03/09/09 04:54 PM 03/09/09 04:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,813 A collage of whims topside Too Many Posts
topside Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,813 A collage of whims	A couple of thoughts...my Eddy 84cc heads did not flow the advertised #s out of the box, needed some port work. I'd replace the single springs with doubles. Overlap will help with octane but hurt with vacuum signal & driveability if taken too far. I'd seriously consider going to 1.6 rockers. It's a good idea to discuss your combo with a sharp cam grinder who knows Mopars. A 4.10 or 4.30 gear will help, and the 4.30 with a taller tire will leave better. Other things that matter are piston weight, using the best ARP rod bolts, and keeping the oil away from the crank.

Re: 440 Build - Piston and Cam Selection [Re: topside] #246725 03/09/09 05:36 PM 03/09/09 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md	A buddy of mine ran 11.80's all day in his 70 440-6 4 speed RR. fully dressed car w/ a 10.5:1 440 ported 915 heads factory 6-pack 509 headers (open when raced) and 4:10's (dana) No need for expensive items, the only expensive thing he used were Weisco pistons. Put it together and drive it like a rental!

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