quench, gasket bore and compressed height
#2394226
10/28/17 02:14 PM
10/28/17 02:14 PM
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NachoRT74
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If I'm using Felpro 1039 headgasket with 4.590" bore and 0.051 CH, on a 400 block +0.020" so 4.362" bore... that makes 0.228" bore difference between block and headgasket... this means 0.114" difference between cylinder wall and gasket all around being with 0.051" gap between block and head... will this area affect quench ?
DESPITE ALL THE REST OF DISCUSSION AND GET FOCUSSED ON THIS PLEASE!!!!
ONCE AGAIN! wondering if this area around the cylinder bore being 0.051" will affect quench efficiency still if my make sit my pistons quench pad still at 0.040 on the 452 heads.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: ahy]
#2394243
10/28/17 03:23 PM
10/28/17 03:23 PM
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6PakBee
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I think that the benefit of quench would be affected, but so minimally I doubt you could tell the difference. But practically speaking, other than having a custom head gasket made, what options do you have other than to live with what you have?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2394244
10/28/17 03:25 PM
10/28/17 03:25 PM
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NachoRT74
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I can't afford $100 per gasket, plus international shipping
other options... use the felpro kit gaskets ( 0.039 ) and felpro copper shims ( 0.020 ), decking block even lower ( 0.010 more ). All thse parts in hands.
reduce CR will be a benefit in fact
Last edited by NachoRT74; 10/28/17 03:27 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2394457
10/28/17 11:38 PM
10/28/17 11:38 PM
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6PakBee
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I guess what I meant with living with what you have is that once you are at minimum quench distance, other than having a custom gasket made to your bore size, you are pretty much out of options. Sorry I wasn't clearer.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2394620
10/29/17 03:48 AM
10/29/17 03:48 AM
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NachoRT74
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I guess what I meant with living with what you have is that once you are at minimum quench distance, other than having a custom gasket made to your bore size, you are pretty much out of options. Sorry I wasn't clearer. Cool!
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: 360view]
#2394783
10/29/17 01:36 PM
10/29/17 01:36 PM
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RapidRobert
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I'm thinking that a gasket bore clos(er) to the bore perimeter would be a somewhat more efficient eng by eliminating the unburned fuel/air in the aforementioned "crevice volume" but this does not make/break quench efficiency that you asked about since the piston plateau/head interface (the quench area) is inward further from that perimeter. A gasket with a smaller bore would get a person closer to a "spot on" engine but whether it would be worth it to you to add that expense I cannot say. Just me I sleep better at night (& function better in the day) knowing I built the most efficient eng that my knowledge (& the collective knowledge of my fellow Moparts brothers) will allow me to accomplish (& my budget!). I gotta go, some hand egg is on the menu for this morning.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2394842
10/29/17 02:52 PM
10/29/17 02:52 PM
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NachoRT74
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yes! I'm pointing out in the future to the cometic headgasket on 4.380 bore 0.051 thickness, but can't make it now. Headgaskets are easy to replace in a close future though, but need to assembly the car ASAP which what I have in hands right now http://www.cometic.com/i-24768321-chrysl...-bore-each.htmlit seems after several decking block corrections I can get pistons around 0.010-0.013 out of the bore... IF FINALLY THEY MAKE IT RIGHT! will need to equalize the quench pads on combustion chambers too ( it seems the deeper one is around 0.120", then maybe cut some ( 0.020" ) the heads to get that area on 0.095-0.100" deepness rate to match the KB215 pistons quench pad step
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2394851
10/29/17 03:04 PM
10/29/17 03:04 PM
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NachoRT74
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by I could understand that "crevice volume" area is prone to preignition due carbon deposits there becoming on a pocket for them! sooooo... the quench job could be a lost job getting another problematic area now.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2394858
10/29/17 03:11 PM
10/29/17 03:11 PM
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NachoRT74
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well thinking it now, the regular 0.039 headgasket is also bigger bore, just not that big ( barelly 0.050 to my actual cylinder bore, 3/4 less than the 1039 gasket), but still becoming on a pocket for carbon deposits
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: ek3]
#2395257
10/30/17 10:57 AM
10/30/17 10:57 AM
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I think you are over thinking this... yes, probably you are right, but an opportunity to learn about I still dunno about all this tech stuff and therms about, combustion, ignition times and everything related. I was mainly worried about preignition ( pinging ) problems due this pocket around cylinder using this bore diameter gaskets after work on all the quench stuff.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2395575
10/30/17 07:14 PM
10/30/17 07:14 PM
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JohnRR
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yes! I'm pointing out in the future to the cometic headgasket on 4.380 bore 0.051 thickness, but can't make it now. Headgaskets are easy to replace in a close future though, but need to assembly the car ASAP which what I have in hands right now http://www.cometic.com/i-24768321-chrysl...-bore-each.htmlit seems after several decking block corrections I can get pistons around 0.010-0.013 out of the bore... IF FINALLY THEY MAKE IT RIGHT! will need to equalize the quench pads on combustion chambers too ( it seems the deeper one is around 0.120", then maybe cut some ( 0.020" ) the heads to get that area on 0.095-0.100" deepness rate to match the KB215 pistons quench pad step Instead of using .039 and a shim just cut the open part of the chamber deeper and do not use the shim. That area of the chamber is .300 thick, taking an extra .020 out of that area will not be a problem.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2395805
10/31/17 12:43 AM
10/31/17 12:43 AM
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NachoRT74
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dogdays:
yes that was my thought, but my doubt was that because per what I have read on several places the quench/squish area can be on 0.050" rate and still be good even the advice is around 0.040"
John:
that could be good too! and will make to keep the heads unmilled, saving from ANOTHER mistake from machine shop. However that could make also to get really close the piston diameter out of the quench pad close to the head around the combustion chamber to allmost 0.020" I think... isn't that some dangerous ? I recall the combustion chamber bore is sligthly smaller bore than the cylinder bore... isn't ?
Wouldn't actually need to cut 0.020" but maybe the 0.010-12 extras the thicker felpro headgaskets got with bigger bore, and keep using the 0.39 with small bore... in another words, cut the combustion chamber quench area same ammount the pistons leaves the deck. Maybe in fact they are actually close to what I need. I'm pretty sure this area is deeper than the piston quench pad height and maybe close to what I need as mentioned on a previous reply.
I will know just once the block is correctly decked and once assembled measured with clay
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396024
10/31/17 01:20 PM
10/31/17 01:20 PM
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making maths without actual measurements yet...
If I have to get the quench area deepness on heads equalized up to .120" taking the deeper one as a starting point( to be confirmed, thats was a rude measurement I made once ), plus .039" of gasket makes .159"
less .095" of piston step and .012" ( or so ) of pistons leaving the deck... total 0.052" of quench. It seems not to be bad. To be used on 95 octanes gas in Vzla, and once move to Spain, probably 98 octanes
Definitelly I'm overthinking the deal with the 0.051 gasket!!!
just thinking on the area out of the combustion chamber, being smaller than the piston bore, that should be on 0.027" rate. Am I fine with it ?
That will get me also the static CR close to 10.5 on the iron heads.
I have 6 and 7 NGKs heat range spark plugs to play... also platinum Bosch plugs WR9FP
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Last edited by NachoRT74; 10/31/17 01:41 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396034
10/31/17 01:32 PM
10/31/17 01:32 PM
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RapidRobert
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other than a low performance daily driver, I would want .035"-.040" quench.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396037
10/31/17 01:36 PM
10/31/17 01:36 PM
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NachoRT74
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sure... but meaning I can still mill down heads still using 0.039 gaskets... and still have to confirm the corrected block decking.
( I have read around 0.050 is still good )
Once again I still have to get the parts correctly machined ( if that's posible locally!!!!! ) to get the final decision...
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396146
10/31/17 04:30 PM
10/31/17 04:30 PM
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I'm actually working on a good enough job... trying to keep the static CR lower as posible keeping on good enough quench numbers, also trying TO NOT SEND MORE PARTS TO UNNEFICIENT MACHINE SHOPS!!! I get really scared everytime I have to send anything to any machine shop!. Before all this squared deck deal I was riding on 10.2-10.3 CR. I guess had pinging due of course the bad quench. Front ones pistons down the deck around 0.015-0.017 and the rears right on zero deck, and using stock composite headgaskets. Diff combustion chambers deepness everywhere, etc... well, what you already know.
I have asked about this many times, I know, and being tiresome. This project has being taking an eternity.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396301
10/31/17 09:46 PM
10/31/17 09:46 PM
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RapidRobert
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I have asked about this many times, I know, and being tiresome. This project has being taking an eternity. Nacho, Keep em coming, we are here to help as much as we can/solve as manny issues as we can/gain & share as much knowledge as we can.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396667
11/01/17 02:09 PM
11/01/17 02:09 PM
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JohnRR
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dogdays:
yes that was my thought, but my doubt was that because per what I have read on several places the quench/squish area can be on 0.050" rate and still be good even the advice is around 0.040"
John:
that could be good too! and will make to keep the heads unmilled, saving from ANOTHER mistake from machine shop. However that could make also to get really close the piston diameter out of the quench pad close to the head around the combustion chamber to allmost 0.020" I think... isn't that some dangerous ? I recall the combustion chamber bore is sligthly smaller bore than the cylinder bore... isn't ?
Wouldn't actually need to cut 0.020" but maybe the 0.010-12 extras the thicker felpro headgaskets got with bigger bore, and keep using the 0.39 with small bore... in another words, cut the combustion chamber quench area same ammount the pistons leaves the deck. Maybe in fact they are actually close to what I need. I'm pretty sure this area is deeper than the piston quench pad height and maybe close to what I need as mentioned on a previous reply.
I will know just once the block is correctly decked and once assembled measured with clay Once the block is decked drop the heads on the empty block without a gasket ... mark heads for what side they are on ... , now turn the block upside down and look in at the heads for chamber overhang into the bores , scribe the areas that overhang and clean them back to a little outside the scribed marks on the open chamber side of the head and roll over the edge on the plug side , or blend the plug side back also if you need to lower the compression some. the .039 you are getting , is that from the web or from actual crushed gasket that is measured ? I have found the 8519 to be more like .041 ???
running up my post count some more .
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2396982
11/01/17 09:52 PM
11/01/17 09:52 PM
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NachoRT74
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From manufacturer specs
( good idea on the method you described )
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: 360view]
#2397619
11/03/17 12:31 AM
11/03/17 12:31 AM
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NachoRT74
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General Motors research on effect of a tight quench where they varied the percent area of the flat piston surface that nearly touches a matching surface on the cylinder head. Note that if you multiply a 4.00 inch bore by their ratio it is 0.026 inches, which is very tight. Many years later Honda wrote up a technical paper on the science of their first V-Tec design. Honda wrote that the quench had to be a tight 0.75 millimeters, nearly the same clearance as GM found. we talked about this on an old thread I asked about a similar topic, and I remember this diagram being posted, and being honest, I'm not clear on everything said there
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2398210
11/04/17 12:25 AM
11/04/17 12:25 AM
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Alchemi
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Kb made those pistons for stock heads
That pistons pad fits the 452 head pad area close to perfectly - any more meat towards the valve would have been excess weight and more compression
Last edited by Alchemi; 11/04/17 12:33 AM.
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2398356
11/04/17 12:19 PM
11/04/17 12:19 PM
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NachoRT74
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Yes I know, and not just 452s, but any open chambers. The deal is that quench pad area is quite often deeper than 0.095" which is the KB215 pistons step height ( my heads were NOS and they are closer to 0.110", but I got them after the pistons ). For a custom step will need KB251s, which are cheaper just right because they need to be cut to needs. I went with KB215s trusting on published expects around for the heads. Maybe KB251 was to be easier to match everything.
Of course the quench step surface on piston matches the quench pad on open chambers, but still is maybe just 25% of the piston area LOL... thats just what I said, not saying just matches 25% of the quench pad on heads
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: 360view]
#2398921
11/05/17 04:53 PM
11/05/17 04:53 PM
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RapidRobert
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If I may hijack: with 9-1 SCR (class rules) & adequate octane so detonation ain't a concern, would there be a significant power bennie from achieveing quench? better mixture homogenization (sp)?? and less timing needed cuz of a faster burn?? If so I wanna do it the next build.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: quench, gasket bore and compressed height
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2404764
11/17/17 01:04 AM
11/17/17 01:04 AM
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A tight quench is mechanical octane!
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