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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2310689
05/25/17 12:25 AM
05/25/17 12:25 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
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QUOTE: But deals like this are far and few for the new stuff on the market.
Could be the wedge stuff had a 30+ year head start?
At least. LOL. Loving it more everyday. I think that was my point. Lots of people know the old small blocks and big blocks very well, know what to look for, and can do a lot of the more intricate work themselves. Same with guys who run the newer stuff. I was just trying to compare actual ballpark prices to build a turn key motors for guys who only know basic mechanics and buy pretty much everything off the shelf. I personally prefer the old stuff and you and other members on this site have helped me save money and time building my engines. But I would like to collect parts as I come along them to build a g3, I think it wound be fun.
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2310843
05/25/17 11:40 AM
05/25/17 11:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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Lets see those time slips...Proof is ALWAYS in the math. SHow me a weight and timeslip NA. Aint hard to figure the power then. not saying I am not open to new stuff by any means, lord knows a lot of what I do it "outside the box" for most of the Mopar crowd. But dyno numbers that are not backed up by timeslip data mean very little.
I am all for the development of the Gen 3 stuff. I am just not dumping a BB and going that way right now. GOnna have to show me. And I see sone VERY LOFTY guesses as to the potential power NA. Making 1000hp is not a simple task for any NA engine let alone a SB limited cube piece. Believe me I work with a small cube 1000+hp piece all the time
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2310860
05/25/17 12:17 PM
05/25/17 12:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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And I wonder what those 750-800hp NA engines cost. Since that seems to be one of the matters in question. Didn't realize what you posted was NA...My bad
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#2310943
05/25/17 02:11 PM
05/25/17 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
STEFF
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
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The 468 is an aftermarket aluminum block motor. Totally unecessary and a big expense for a Gen III unless you're wanting to cut weight, factory blocks are more than adequate. Thiteks aren't cheap, but I'd venture to guess you could get the cfm needed from an Apache/Big Gas/HellCat head. The 468 I posted wasn't maxed out, it was still using a factory intake (ported) and 12:1, room for more compression and a better intake Thiteks are not expensive for a brand new CNC ported cylinder head! Depending on how you get them, bare castings to fully assembled, they are around $2500-3500. I got mine for $2850...Ported Castings with Stainless Valves, ready to assemble. I had my own springs locks & retainers etc.
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2310952
05/25/17 02:28 PM
05/25/17 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
STEFF
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
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And I wonder what those 750-800hp NA engines cost. Since that seems to be one of the matters in question. Didn't realize what you posted was NA...My bad Al, These motors cost the same to build as it does a good small or big block of that HP caliber......$15-20+ grand. Like I tell everyone, Good parts cost good money, regardless of what you build. The disadvantage to this platform compared to the others is there is not alot of used inventory of high caliber parts floating around, like with the big blocks, small blocks, Gen 2 Hemis etc.... You want to build a stout NA deal, get ready to pay just like you would any other motor, if you do not have anything to start with. NOBODY is making 700+ HP NA with these motors, with junkyard core and some bolt ons. Power adders, that's another story.....
Last edited by STEFF; 05/25/17 02:33 PM.
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: moparmitch]
#2310971
05/25/17 02:55 PM
05/25/17 02:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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The newer VVT engines are not as desirable as you have to deal with the cam phasing garb and related camshaft. In production form they seem to make good power for what they are, but they would not be a first choice for a traditional power build up to swap parts on to.
I need a motor for my ride and I'm stuck between a 440 based setup or possibly a G3 based platform. I've considered a 6.4 Apache motor, but to run a simple carb and MSD box, would require the goofy cam phaser "locking" (and still using stock timing set) along with a manifold swap. And then there's the MDS junk and the MDS lifters which would need to go. Along with that, then new valve springs and pushrods would be the right thing to do...this adds up quick, not to mention all the time involved. You would have to get a really good deal on a VVT motor to cover all the band-aid fixes to make it barely reasonable for a high performance N/A breather. Of course, this doesn't really matter for an EFI forced induction.
It seems as though the greatly demonstrated pre VVT block buildups are still the way to go for a G3 performance motor. Just look at Dustin's build to see the successful and well proven approach.
Notice the the engine masters stroker buildups all use non VVT based motors.
I also agree with the statement that a G3 vs BB build will cost similar for a 600-700HP build. I've run the numbers too and its about a wash with all things considered.
I'm still very intrigued by the G3 and would like to move to this platform...we'll see
my two cents...
VVT is soooo easy to delete, remove 4 screws on the phaser and stick something, almost anything, in the oil chamber to prevent it from moving and bolt it back together. With very little ingenuity you can even use it as an easy advance retard mechanisim instead of buying a very expensive adjustable timing set, just shim the cam forward and backward in the same oil chamber to set it where you want it. If MDS bothers you gen a manual trans engine. If you find a screamin deal on a used one with MDS and you want to ditch it, well MDS is easy peasy also, just leave the solenoids in and don't plug em in and wa la, no MDS. You do not need to buy new lifters to delete MDS. Neither one costs any money to eliminate. Plus if you are planning to go the "don't touch the long block" method you get a slightly better rod (a little more meat where the 08 back would snap)and piston (lower ring friction due to thinner rings and the top ring is a little farther down) in the 09+ engines.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2311009
05/25/17 04:07 PM
05/25/17 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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Steff you confirm pretty much what I suspected. Just cannot imagine it being a cheaper endeavor at all. Possibly better stock pieces available but many of us have moved well past stock anything these days.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2311183
05/25/17 09:40 PM
05/25/17 09:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
Just-a-dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
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I have been drinking the coolaid on this, collecting parts. I agree good parts cost comparable money. A lot of it is about what the goals are. For me racing is a way of keeping myself amused and getting rid of excess cash and time. If looking for sound investments a race engine is not were I would put my money 
"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: The Shadow]
#2311258
05/25/17 11:35 PM
05/25/17 11:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
pittsburghracer
OP
"Little"John
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OP
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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You cant compare aftermarket offerings against factory for all out racing.
The gen3 is the best factory offering from mopar but its not near the aftermarket bb offerings.
KB is working on the gen 3 so who knows what the future holds though Oh they are? That's not what I heard
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#2311343
05/26/17 01:58 AM
05/26/17 01:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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The 468 is an aftermarket aluminum block motor. Totally unecessary and a big expense for a Gen III unless you're wanting to cut weight, factory blocks are more than adequate. Thiteks aren't cheap, but I'd venture to guess you could get the cfm needed from an Apache/Big Gas/HellCat head. The 468 I posted wasn't maxed out, it was still using a factory intake (ported) and 12:1, room for more compression and a better intake Thitek head is not just a copy of a stock head. Its port is raised and will outflow any of the factory heads. Plus you can run a dual valve spring making it far better for what we need to do. That 468 has the 2.20 titanium valve Thitek heads on it. Ported stock 6.1 intake is extremely good. Long runners but still flows very well. And you can only build an engine that big with a factory block if you darton sleeve it.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2311400
05/26/17 08:56 AM
05/26/17 08:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
Spaceman Spiff
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
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I wonder how many late model mopars are out there running swapped in big blocks....
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2311484
05/26/17 12:37 PM
05/26/17 12:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I wonder how many late model mopars are out there running swapped in big blocks.... How would it pass emissions?
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: madscientist]
#2311496
05/26/17 12:55 PM
05/26/17 12:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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My 493 10.5-1, 590 mopar cam, edel rpm heads 600hp
Upgraded to indy ez and solid roller made around 720hp
426 6.1 base. Eagle heads. 10.5-1, .600 lift hyd cam 620ish hp
That upgrade on the BB cost alot of money. I put aluminum caps in the motor when I upgraded because I got "nervous". Roller cam and everything that goes with it. Very spendy. Going over that 600 mark seems to get much more expensive
Last edited by sixpackgut; 05/26/17 01:09 PM.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi
[Re: madscientist]
#2311515
05/26/17 01:35 PM
05/26/17 01:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
Spaceman Spiff
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
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I wonder how many late model mopars are out there running swapped in big blocks.... How would it pass emissions? Race cars don't have to pass emissions.....
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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