So a Friend asked me why won't you build a Gen 3 Hemi

Almost begged me to build one last night and I told him I will give you an answer after I check on something today. Well I called him back with an answer this morning. I have one Keith Black block, one mega blocks, one 48 degree R block, a 59 degree R3 block, 3 stock 440 blocks, one 340 block, and 13 ( 360 blocks ). I turned down a 360 complete engine with a 727 bolted to it over the weekend for 50 dollars but may go back and grab it. After I told my friend the numbers of blocks I have he kinda understood but said he would still love to see what I could do with one. I guess if on fell in my lap it would be kinda fun.

I have wondered why I have not looked into gen 3 also. Can get good flowing heads and blocks seem to be stronger then old BB. Think a new hellcat block is $1500.

They are a good eng and have their place but I would never put one in my 63. The 62 to 65 Mopars are the Max Wedge and Gen II Hemi era and thats what I prefer in mine. Nothing wrong with using the Gen III Hemi if that's what you want. Ron

We had parts for two complete 5.7's at work that we had gathered from various jobs.... sat on them for years. Absolutely no value. basically gave them away to a scrap guy. About 3 years after that people started builds using them. Guess I should have held out a little longer.

When I see what guys are paying for rockers, intakes, cams, ect, ect, ect, I catch myself shaking my head. Some guys have switched to FI only to pay big money and really struggle with it for zero performance gains. But I'm thankful of the generation 3 because its really made for some good deals on the "old junk" parts. LOl
Just gotta keep some spare change in your pocket for when a deal comes along.

Pick up the 360/727!!!
I sure would.

Pretty sure I passed the deal on to my friend. I honestly am set pretty good but it's a sure money maker if you need some quick cash. I just hate selling stuff once it's taken apart and stored in my shop

Super heads out of the box, good stock blocks, but few choices for intake systems ,cam control and ignition. Ma Mopar could have kicked off a great start for this engine family by providing low to reasonably priced parts for hot rodders and racers, but chose not to. Sad.
I have thought that an eight stack constant flow alky injected Gen 3 would make a great race motor, with 800+ hp reasonably easy to reach, and very light for the power.

I got a blown up 5.7 for free and rebuilt it, collected a bunch of parts for it and there it sits. I wanted carbureted and have a couple intakes and so on. Nothing happened.

Plan B was, I've got two vehicles with 5.7s of the same vintage, one of them is my truck with 250,000 miles on it. It's really not worn out enough to change it. If I ever sold that other engine sitting there, the truck would probably throw a rod through the block the same day.

This is how I see it also............the only late model for me is my daily driver and even though they've proven to make power, just like turbos today, no thankxx................

I'm nibbling around the edges of the G3 deal now. Just bought a pair of Eagle heads that I can't wait to get on the flow bench. Mopar says 300+ CFM. We'll see. But I'm just as interested in the low and mid lift numbers.

I might like to try a stroked 5.7 (392) around 11:1 CR, 250-ish cam, single 4bbl intake, 950 carb. If I see it to completion, I'd sure be tickled if it'd go high 10's in a 3000# A body and be 100% pump gas street friendly.

On principal I agree with some; a G3 doesn't seem "right" to me in some applications; ie Ron's example of an early B-body. But in an A body, they seem right at home to me.

Sounds like you have a stash of good parts sitting there so for you it wouldn't make any sense.

The argument that they're prohibitively expensive gets holes poked in it pretty fast though. Rocker Arms are expensive, but a good set of quality rockers for a SB or BB aren't far behind. You can get a good intake now for $500. Cam, last I looked a roller cam set for a SB or BB was $800, in line for what you pay for a Gen III (although all you need is a cam ($400 ish), factory lifters are good for 7K and you can convert them to solids). Rotating assemblies are a wash. Where you get some $$$ back is you can walk into a junkyard and leave with a cross bolted 800+ hp capable block (reliably) and heads that flow 300+ before porting (Eagles), to get those capabilities with a SB or BB you need to look at the aftermarket. Yes you can't buy $89 Summit Racing flat tappet cams but that's not the type of build you're looking at.

Stick with what you're comfortable with and giver

Im just curious because Im still learning. At what point do you need to buy rockers, because I just got off the phone with Arrow Racing and they use stock rockers in their Trans Am motors and the cascar(candian nascar) series


And Goss made many 200mph passes with a stock block before he ran over the crank

My 2 cams i bought, custom grinds were under $350 so ptbgracer you must be shaking your head at the money you waste on them 13 360s. Lolol

Good point, the factory Gen III rockers are very capable as is, to get a SB/BB to an equivalent capability would require decent aftermarket rockers.

The big stumbling block to me is no dist. So no basic low budget build, big money right from the start. After accumulating parts all these years none work on the engine, you start from scratch. Lap tops, FI, fuel rails and injectors, o2 sencers, for us older guys a little intimidating. Never have had to pull heads just to change lifters-cam. Bad part, I got three looking at me right now while scratching my a$$.

MSD 6 hemi kits are around $700 ish, not far off what a good distributor/coil/ignition controller would put you back

A few years ago I picked up a complete 48,000 mile takeout 2008 SRT 6.1 with NAG trans at a pretty good price. No real plan yet, but it is sitting next to a '69 Coronet R/T hardtop shell.

I may end up selling some cars to finance future projects. The wife ran up my credit cards, so might take awhile to pay them off

You undo the rockers, pull the pushrods and rotate the engine. The lifters get pushed over to the side and you swap cams.

Next, support a moparts member and get yourself a nice Thumpercarb(even though he wants to live in the past and hates on the new stuff every chance he gets) and put it on a $500 intake. Get a hemimsd6 and hook up all 5 wires and start it up.

Anybody want to buy 3 old out-dated 440 blocks. LOL

List them in resto section. They are useless

I know this is not an everyday ocurance but I just picked up a 2011 eagle 5.7 hemi off CL with 109,000 miles for $300, (I have picked up a couple of earlier ones around that price), opened it up to see if he sold me some junk, everything looked like new so I am stuffing it in my truck right now to get it running while I build the good motor. The good motor is going to have a SRT 392 cam ($68) from the dealer(.577 lift) I am gonna bump compression and quench up for $200 at the machine shop, the heads that flow as much as a real good ported W2 heads. Arrow racing has a nice looking intake for $500ish carb or EFI but if your going EFI the factory intakes are pretty awesome. There is some sticker shock on headers and oil pans but if your getting real good SB stuff than they are comparable. There is pros and cons to both but if your buying stuff from scratch you got to look real hard at the gen III. If your buddy has to buy an X block from you and pay you for some W2s that flow 330+ CFM then he has just leveled the playing field on price plus he don't have aluminum heads, lightweight plastic intakes, cheap 7000+ RPM hydro roller lifters, and far better oil control yet. My truck has 300,000 miles, used zero oil and the cylinder walls look almost new.

I'll guarantee you this. I can take one of those "useless blocks" and beat 99% of the Gen 3 Hemi's. LOL. And cheaper too because I buy used.

Tell me how you would do it? And dont say I would bolt on b1 heads that I have sitting on the shelf.

I can't let out all my secrets but I don't see many NA gen 3's running 8's and low 9's in the 1/4. Plus most of the guys must be afraid of racing light cars and prefer tanks.

One thing I have become very aware of lately. A couple friends want my help porting there own heads. I have come to realize that grinding metal away is not very easy for people and you take that for granted. You have skills and tools that other don't so you cant make the claims you make because others simply can not duplicate it. It could cost someone else easily thousands of dollars to do what your doing in your free time.

But you cant go to the junk yard and get a set of heads that flow over 300cfm for any sb or bb mopar

Why did you post this question? We get it, you hate Gen III Hemis, you don't want to build one, why post about it? Take a look at the times guys are running with their "tanks" and extrapolate their power into your race cars and you'd be running low 9's/8's.

Trouble maker. Now you made me upset the Hemi guys. The new Gen 3 guys are almost as much fun as the old school Hemi guys. Just like feeling in catfish on a Summer evening.

Lol. Ya its my fault

I'm looking for 1 or 2 Gen3s right now.. I'll
put one in my 38 Ply and maybe one in my
Rampage if I can make it fit which will be
close

I have a lot of 340-440s sitting around, but I'd have to send most to a machine shop, buy better heads etc. It would get expensive pretty quick since all I have is stock parts.

I want to do a turbo 5.7 for my bevedere. I'll make headers, buy an ms3 system and so on and go run it, if it blows, I can go buy another 5.7 for 1k or less and do it again

Things are strange in Pittsburgh

Some of us aren't as uptight as others and like to have a little fun. Old school Hemi guys are a little boring and the Gen 3 guys must be too. Lmao.

Compared to you, Pittsburghracer, I am a good gen 3 racemotor candidate. I have NO spare parts for my 528, but i do have mechanical fuel injection that only requires a mounting bracket for the pump and a manifold, and have acquired Apache heads complete ready to run, a 3.888 crank, early 5.7 core motor, good rods, SRT exhaust and complete intake system plus a Helcat blower assembly in need of a front bearing.
It would be cheaper to build a 380 inch gen 3, and with the heads flowing 340 cfm right out of the box I would think 750 hp would be a piece of cake. Better yet sell the crank and rods and go as big as the 5.7 will allow, have the heads touched up a bit and be within a tenth or two of my current motors performance for a LOT less than I have in that piece.
In the end, it really is more about what we like. With your stash, a garage sale would get you enough cash to fund the project from what it sounds like. The fact that you posted this says you might,, some day.

You are never to old to try new things but honestly I haven't even raced a car with a big block since my wreck in 2010. Its been kinda fun playing with some of this small block stuff. Now with the heads-up car hitting the track soon (finally a big block) I have a whole bunch of learning to do. Nitrous tuning, progressive, Grid, suspension tuning, and what-ever other new hurdles come up. I will be buying at least a set of W7 head cores for a 48 degree build because of the Jessel rockers, intake, rods, pistons, and block I picked up at give away prices, but that another day down the road.

Brand loyalty has it's place, but not if it prevents you from completing a project.
An LSX will do anything a G-3 will do for 1/2 the money.

That's nice. Why don't you start YOUR own post and tell us about it. Please do, I'm all ears.

I agree, if money is all that matters, then buy/build GM and be a quitter..............

I think most here are aware of the LS platform's potential. So what does it have to do with this thread? If a LS floats your boat by all means build you one.

Live in the past with your purple shafts and 906's
Gen 3 is the future like it or not
40 years in technology advancement superiority cant be denied
Crank up sitting on the dock of the bay and build your antiquated 440's

Dick is the first thing that comes to mind.

Not everyone wants to run modern based builds, I dont myself but could at some point.

I watch the Gen3 people do things with all the modern gear, ign, fi and see some run a dizzy and a carb, its all about ones preference.

Even the baddest ls combo around sooner or later will get one upped by another build weather a ls or import or ? for that matter.

Most of us pick who or what class we race in, mopar guys generally dont take a knife to a gunfight.

Weather a Gen3 or Ls a well built, well thought out old mopar can still catch a ray of sunshine from time to time.

The past isn't half as bad as the future. All the gen X, snowflake cuckold males can't bring anything but a quicker end to the Republic than even I thought.

Gen 3 Hemi doesn't fit into a-body cars very well. That may have changed, but the first guys doing it had to work at it iirc.

If you race frequently it seems smart to stick with whatever combo you can afford to keep running long term.

I have not been to the track in a few years, but the local Mopar guys never seem to be the ones who can make all the races for a whole year. Mopar guy blows a motor, differential, transmission, etc and they miss multiple races before they return. GM and Ford guys seem to get their cars repaired and are back at it the next weekend or two. Mopar guys here have fast stuff, no doubt, but at the end of the year it's the guy with the budget build 454 single four barrel 72 Nova that takes the track championship because they make all the races.

And your point relative to THIS discussion is what...??

Same with a SBC, BBC, and so on. Your revelation is no news flash.

But try to say focused and on point, so one is talking about the LSX.

*Footnote: If I had to build a Shivy, I wouldn't have anything but an LS/LSX between the fenders!

I am building a gen III because it is different. I have owned big blocks ( never a small block though even though a wound tight small block is a thing of beauty).

When I started to think about a new engine I thought about this with a Gen III:

Block that can take 1,000+ Horsepower? Check.

Heads that flow great? Check.


Still a MOPAR? Check.


Stroker kits? Check.


That ticked all the boxes for me, and I am very happy that I went in this direction. More parts are coming out all the time for this engine, we should embrace it ALONG with Big blocks, small blocks, and other generation Hemi's.

Sometimes I think Mopar people are our own worst enemies. ( myself included!!)

FLATHEADS FOREVER!!!!

Yup, I hear you. I have a 4" Merc crank in the garage next to a 59L block and some 906 heads. These are weighed down by a couple of pairs of LY rods. Oh, yes, the SU359 intake hanging on the wall next to the 283 chevy 2-4s intake. None of it's worth a crap anymore.

I must be living in a different world, though, because the last time I saw a GIII for $500 or less was about 10 years ago, when they were having teething problems. My local Craigslists are fresh out.

R.

Incorrect an LS-X is a formidable piece but the heads ain't nowhere near as efficient as the G3 offerings. J.Rob

Big blocks don't fit well in A-bodies either with out fenderwell headers etc.. For that matter small blocks don't really fit all that well either--we have just learned to accept all the compromises. I am SURE a G3 will fit in an A-body better than any of them with fenderwell headers and with zero concerns about sparkplug access to boot!. J.Rob

Well, I am considering going to a G3 Hemi and selling the 605 Hemi carb to pan....

Got hassled at tech the other week pretty good with my race car, and the car the Hemi is in, is not setup to go that fast legally like my race car. So I either need to fully cage the street car, which I really don't want to, or go a little smaller....A G3 would be perfect with a BES dual distributor setup...

Racing needs to go back to being fun and less of a hassle, at least for me.

I agree. Magnum stuff has gone away because SB fans had to have LA family for whatever reason.

Gen III is where I'll be heading next.

A 904 is a direct bolt up? Check.

Then that 40 year old block splits at the mains and you drive over the crank. 😳

In all my 8 second passes I split one block and never found it till I took it apart after 275 passes. (no concrete, no super plate) Never leaked a drop of water. Now I would be smart enough to at least have a diaper wrapped around it like I have on my small block. Ballistic and heat resistant for the best 250 dollars I probably ever spent.

Party poop! I was having some fun with ya...geez.

You gotta get up pretty early in the morning to get a pot-stirrer. LOL

On my hemi, the headers go right in from the bottom. If you had to take the starter out you will hate it but easiest header install ever.

I hate hearing you can build a chevy for half as much. I port LS heads every day. Chevy guys are just willing to spend money. They work on their junk harder. They race more. They blow there junk up alot and do it all over again

And I really dont know of any faster than mine is on motor. Comparing apples to apples

My friends LS7 makes a little more power than me but Im a tenth quicker at the same weight

There's so much truth in both of these post.

G3 would be perfect with a BES dual distributor setup...

Racing needs to go back to being fun and less of a hassle, at least for me. [/quote]



Agreed.

I left this hobby back in 2007, kept about 50% of the stuff I horded over the years. decided to get back in to it, and IMHO G3 hemi is the way to go, great power to weight, good fuel mileage
If you have a #s matching 440 car, Hemi car, hell even a 340 dart, I say stick with what you know, my 68 Hemi Road Runner is going to stay GII , but if I find a S6 318 maybe even a 383 Coronet/Satellite, I'm going G3,
Some one here said Mopar people are our own worst enemies, that's so true,
Past is good to learn from , not relive
I love my Lil Red and Midnite Express trucks, and those will stay 360 and 440 powered, but if I find A Lil Red basket case, I won't think twice about tossing a G3 in it,
in the end, only you have to live with what you chose to spend your money on, any gives you crap remind them whose name is on the title.

I certainly won't miss reaching around hot headers to remove my spark plug to check/change them when I do the 5.7 swap.

As far as lsx motors go, I've built them and gen 3 hemis... to me they are pretty similar and cost wise most parts didn't cost much less for the ls1.

But I got all the regular stuff already, at no cost. Now you start from scratch. In fifty years I can count on one hand the stuff I bought new.

Gen 3 Hemi's SUCK!!!

Lol. But the girls at the car shows dig them.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yeah you can move a lot of CFM thru them stock

Rumor has it that SixPackguts G3 car is so fast he can pull 8 plug wires and still run 9s!

Ill agree. Our Challenger seemed like it stayed in the shop. Needless to say it got traded off.

I'll stick with the old school junk. Regardless of what anyone says, the Gen 3's are more expensive to build and install. The headers, oil pans and engine mounts they require are not cheap. The rotating assemblies in side the junkyard pickup truck 5.7's are just that, junk. For a fun, 500-600hp street car, an old school RB build can be done for a fraction of the cost without roller-this or stroker-that.

And it's a small block. Too bad that head won't fit on a 440 to 572 ci big block. Now we talking power.

Aaaaaa I think we have heads that flow SLIGHTLY better than that for big blocks. Heck the W8-W9 stuff that Brett does is impressive as heck.

But you can't pick them out of a junkyard, that's the beauty of a G3. You guys that have stuff for a BB stacked like chord wood it would make no sense to build one. Starting from scratch it's still a wash

I think, that's the deal. If you build good power with the old stuff you need an aftermarket block usually and availability is sketchy. So it will come down to what's available. Waiting months for parts that might never show up doesn't work.

Some people you'll never convince.
I'm actually surprised they are even on the internet.
Watching their black and white wooden cabinet tv sets and adjusting the rabbit ears for reception.

I updated to one of those electronic rotors on my TV antenna. It works GREAT!!!!!!

i remember a few years back BES did one for the engine masters contest and was 80hp over the LS piece.pump gas hyd cam 700hp ish pretty impressive from what i can remember and im sure he would have did a LS motor if he knew it would be a winner.340 Rick has one in his 70 chally runs 9.6s i believe also pretty mild build.

Hardly anyone seems to be doing one for racing....Ain't seen one up close yet...

Oh i forgot to mention Dave S local guy i bought 512 RB off a few years back that he replaced with a boneyard build 5.7 stock 6.1cam and heads with single turbo 3.23gears that ran 8.9s.he is also a member here if you want specifics on his build.

If that was pointed to me I'm not interested in a 8.9's power added build. My 512 will cover that with no adder, but thanks for the offer. Now it only comes down to was that number at one of the mineshaft east coast tracks or inland.

that wasnt directed at anybody just to point out that they are deffinately decent pieces to work with.tell me more about this 8sec 512 very interested!!!

I know you want to play hard core that you wont
change.. but that 8.9 is with a STOCK engine that
a guy put a turbo on.. your car is light.. what
was his.. you better learn to open your mind a bit
or not

His car must weigh 2000 lbs to run 8.90's with a 512 rb

If I remember right he is running 2400 or
just a bit more.. still a good running car

8.90 ET at 2400 lbs = 672 hp. 672hp from 512 cubes.....Not impressed.

Who in the heck said the car weights 2400 pounds. Lol
I wish it did because then we would go even faster. Like I said you will never see me driving a two ton tessy. My street day's are over and I'm to young to need creature comforts. But this is a story for another day

Having built and raced every engine Mopar has ever built hands down a GEN 3 is the best bang for the buck. Using the example of 700HP show me a stock BB/SB or really for that matter a stock Gen2 head that will support 700HP. You might get there with a Gen 2 head with work. A 700HP big block even of you start with a block you already have will cost you more. If your starting from scratch you need
Headers good headers are the same price for either
After market oil pan I have yet to see a stocker that will support 700hp
Heads --You can use stock 6.1 or apache heads
Rockers---You can use stock gen 3 rockers on a 700hp build
Rotator is the same money
Machine work is the same
No brainer I built one and the only reason I would build a BB or Gen 2 hemi now is if I would want to go NSS racing again (which I do) but I hate the thought of building another BB!!!!

betcha theres more $$ in that 512 than the turbo 5.7 and its around 3100lbs.im convinced gen IIIs are not the way to go LOL

I lurk over on the Moparts gen 3 area because believe it or not I am open minded and enjoy reading and studying before I leap. As for costs I have 2800.00 in my mega block ready to assemble, 2200.00 in my rotating assembly, and under 1200.00 in my 440-1 heads with Harlan Sharp rockers with upgraded 2.250 valves (I will probably go with a set of T&D rockers if valve to piston permit). Indy intake was in a package deal and 500.00 in the alcohol toilet if I go that way. It adds up but still what I consider budget build as I shy away from some of the "ragazine" tricks that drive up costs. But like I said my eyes and ears are open while you guys get a hints figured out. I can only hope that is a misprint on what a gen 3 guy said lifters cost in that one post over there.

Not sure where you find $1200 -1 heads with Harland sharp rockers or a $2800 mega block ready to roll hell just find a mega block worth building right now. This is why I will put a gen 3 stroker together and run 10.0 index vs NSS

8.90 in anything with doors n/a... I'm impressed.

Wonder if ptsbracer get lexan, fiberglass and holesaws as cheap as engine parts

IIRC he removed the glass doors from the car in favor of more "friendly" stock doors with roll up glass.

No kidding, and it takes a lot of work weather old school or new just seems a bit easier w/late model and EFI. I know I came off very strong and negative about the new stuff so my bad there, it's just a personal preference thing and there's no right or wrong until stubborn guys like myself and a few others make it personal. I love the positive and negative results I get from carbs and although messy and a pain at times, I just cant see myself on a laptop tuning. Hell, I cant even post pics here............... N/A Old school has been my goal forever so that's where I`ll stay and shoot for that elusive 5.99..............

If one did a graph showing age to what type engine, I think it would show real clear who likes what. Heck for the sake of argument, if either engine was free with all the goodies, which one then.

ack in his



Ya I could start a weight gain post. Between kicking my son out of the car and back in his, stock steel doors with stock wind up window, alternator, exhaust, R3 block, diaper, racepak and electrical upgrades, and a few other goodies I added 250-300 pounds to the car. Lol. I call it my old man car. Race it, drive it in the trailer and climb out the window, and go home. Matt went to take the hood off at the track last week and I asked him what the heck he was doing.

Lol. Thats how I am and exactly why I went g3. Hyd roller ftw

I'm exploring building a carb'd Gen 3 for my dirt late model deal... rebuilding a small block 383 right now.

Seems to me it will be cheaper than buying a Ritter block and W-2 or ported aftermarket heads. Plus the good Eagle heads are better than most any small block head and are on the shelf at my local dealer 6 blocks away.

The juice lifter deal is my only question mark... can they live for 25 laps on a 1/2 mile at 7,000 rpm's? The T&D/Jesel numbers don't fit my budget right now so solid lifters are pretty much a no go.

We'll see.....

Remembering back to when the 2.2 was the only "factory performance" engine platform, I see alot of humor in these discussions....We're actually pretty lucky to have anything, considering how small our overall volume is.

Amen brother!

Thats me as I am old school top to bottom. But thats just me as I love what I grew up with. Even on brand X as if I see a nice 69 Chevelle SS 396 and see a newer LS under the hood its not what I like to see under there as I want to see a 396 or BB Chevy under its hood. And as I say thats just me. Nothing wrong with anyone going with a modern eng in their old muscle if thats what they like. I like the NSS racing alot and like to see what eng belongs under their hoods as thats what floats my boat. But the new eng will run good and I dont knock anyone for building what they like as you have to build what you like.
I honestly think many of us including me were really surprised to see the muscle cars return with all the power they have with the power adders as I think most like me felt we would never see anything like this from the factory again after the muscle cars died in the 70's. Bottom line is new or old Mopar they are all Mopars so we should like them all as I do. I just prefer old school for myself. But there is alot of modern parts now for the old school engines that help them run alot better also. Ron

there was a member here that built a GenIII for a dirt modified here. Seems they had some bearing probs, but corrected some oiling issues and it worked.... can't for the life of me remember who it was.

I have only had decent flat top pump gas BB's. I have a decent flat top stroked Gen III now and it's a no brainer. This 45 yr old is done with the old stuff, unless I have something fall into my lap and the budget dictates.

CHAPPER did, and it took an aftermarket crank to get to live at 8000+ and a 13qt pan iirc.

you know the old Hemi guys in the 60s felt the same way about the 440's and small block Chevys
Time has a way of moving forward, and it's a good thing that some people stay in the past....

Yep, I think it was the 6.1 crank's cross drilling that caused oil starvation

I don't think he used a 6.1 crank, IIRC he used a 5.7 crank.

I keep seeing the word cost thrown around. What's the comparative ballpark dollar value for a guy starting from scratch?

No friend deals and nothing sitting in garage, buying aftermarket stuff at full price, blocks from junkyard or Craigslist, assembling everything himself except the short block, and also paying a shop for machining... what would be the cost to build a turn key 700hp BB vs a turn key 700hp G3 street engine, with headers and motor mounts to fit in a late 60's B body?

Ohhhhh boy. This should get good.

For your 700 hp Gen III you can use junkyard stuff, sixpackgut would be one of the guys to answer this question the best.

Your shortblock cost will likely be about the same because it will all be aftermarket rods, crank, pistoms, etc. The top end is where the G3 will shine. Factory heads, lifters, and rockers. The intakes are still stupid expensive but your still cheaper with a G3 IMO.

When you get to ignition for the BB you need to buy, a coil, a distributor, an ignition box, and plug wires. For the Hemi you can use your stock coils and get an MSD Hemi 6 to handle everything else.

Your headers and mounts will likely cost about the same for either engine.

And we're off! This is a honest look, apples to apples for the 600-650 HP target. Of note, one can find Eagle heads cheaper than my listed $750, just threw that number out there. There is also a new single plane Arrow intake that hit the market for $550. Of course there is more than one approach to the build, these were comparable parts and their costs:

No need for anything other than good rods and pistons to build a 700 hp 440. I have a .030" over 440 that makes about 700 hp w/ a stock crank and block.

Ummmm I'm with Chip. The 440 that was in the Dragster had stock block and crank 440 Source rod and pistons. Small roller and OOTB -1 heads. Did not have a ton of money in it as the heads, intake, and rockers were all bought used(wont buy from Indy). Basic machine work and balancing and off she went. 8.30/160 all the time in Vegas between 675-700

The costs are about the same regardless of platform. I've done the math, created spreadsheets and even built a few of them.

Al is cheating and using used parts. He also broke the block in his dragster so there is that to consider. I haven't heard of any G3's splitting blocks at those power levels.

While you might be able to save some money on using a stock crank in a 440, you're going to save money using factory G3 heads over the Indy varieties mentioned above that are >$3K new.

It's a balancing act, I continue to take the stance though that it doesn't matter, you're going to end up spending the same money give or take a few bucks.

cudadoug, that's pretty spendy for a 600hp RB. I see 2.5k worth of stuff there you do not need for only a 600hp RB based stroker.

My spread sheet isn't to say one is better then the other, it's just a side by side comparison. However, with the exception of the block cores (and Gen 3 heads) these are NEW part prices.

We all have had "not a ton of money" in bullets before as they're are always used parts deals to be had someplace. The above example is based on: acquire the used cores and then open the required catalogs and order.

Broken block because I didn't bother to chrck it, I have the tools :)Didn't think we needed to bother, obviously wrong. Nothing wrong with buying used parts and making them useable. A lot of stuff out there to purchase for a song. Just have to realize they will need work. I have put together a lot of low dollar BB's over the years that were well under $6K.

I have built, sold, bought a TON of stuff over the years. I buy a lot of "used" stuff that has never been used. Contrary to popular belief I am not a rich guy, just try to be smart about it. I have looked into the gen 3 stuff and as of yet am not overly impressed. Must be the old guy in me. For me bang for the buck a BB is going to be easier way to make that kind of power. Not poopooing anyones stuff but have not seen many NA Gen 3 pieces that make me sit up and take notice.

Maybe someone needs to do the Gen 3 like the LS guys do. Buy a junkyard Gen3 bolt a turbo on it and run it. When it blows go get another. Seems to work for a lot of fast LS stuff

I just bought a complete eagle 109,000 miles, non mds engine off CL for $300 threw it in my truck and am driving it now. That is a screaming deal but I frequently see cores around $500 and have 2 sitting under the bench right now. I more commony find the early ones for under $500 and have 3 of them sitting around. While it will not get you 700 HP (probably be close with some cubes and compression thrown in the short block with a good $500 arrow intake) a new 6.4 cam (.577 lift) from the dealer cost me $68 and matching valve springs are under $200. If thats not enough regrind it for under $100 to get you what you need. The factory lifters in that core usually will work in a 700 hp motor, stock 440 ones not so much and the cheap regrind only gets you a flat tappet cam. Another thing about the new hemi, real nice, MLS head gaskets are $22 from autozone.

Really though I don't see a reason to build your own stroker gen III when you cna buy a 6.4 short block from the dealer for around $2500 or in other words the price of a 6.4 stroker kit for your 5.7. Mill your boneyard heads for a little comp, do a little port clean up, throw on a good intake and you probably can be under $4000 in a quality motor then the exterior stuff is very similar price like quality headers.

Another option is buy a complete used 6.4 off car part . com or ebay throw in a bigger cam, better intake and quality headers and you can be close to 700 at the flywheel without even pulling the heads. After all they are making nearly 500 SAE net with sucky exhaust and emmision friendly tune and cam and a quietified intake.

Guess we need to see more timeslips. I am a visual guy and short of Dustin and Ray have not seen to many slips at all. Also what kind of money do those two have in their set ups? I am genuinely curious. FWIW I have nott seen to many cheap core engines but I am sure they are out there. We considered it for my old truck at one point and may again.

Dave_S combo
5.7 (+.020) from an 05 Ram
Home ported eagle heads (stock valves) Manley DragPak springs
6.1 crank, K1 rods, Wiseco dished pistons 10.7:1 comp
6.1 cam and lifters. Trend stock length 5/16 pushrods
stock rockers
6.1 intake with 90mm t/body
MS3x inj. with ford motorsports 160 lb/hr injectors
76mm turbo a/a intercooler
9.47@144 so far
3000lb Dart 3.23 gears in 8 3/4. powerglide
has gone 8.93 now

dont know how to attach a link but for those interested check out post:please share your gen 3 hemi builds
lots of good info

While I appreciate the info turbo/blower stuff is not as relevant to me. Not trying to take anything away from anyone. Hell I went 9 teens with a 474" BB with iron heads and blower at 3600lbs in the 90's. Power adders tend to "muddy" the waters for me. Hell throw a turbo on 4 cylinder and they can run really well. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the build but does not really tell me what kind of potential these things have in NA form

That's how I look at it too. 8.90's with a power adder is slow in my eyes. Come to the Pittsburgh area and see some 8 second no-adders.

I pretty much feel similar. We have been really fast on junk with a bottle or blower. I had a buddy who went 8.0's on a 28x10.50 with a 4.6 Mod motor with stock heads, cams and a 98mm Turbo.

If my junk runs only runs high 8's on nitrous when and if I ever finish this project get ready for a fire sale. Lol

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2053593/2/actual-build-costs.html

This was everything including shipping costs for these parts. Aside from a few trips to the hardware store of course. Including the entire ignition system, headers etc. I could replicate the long block pretty inexpensively.

Not cheap, but everything was new, and I opted for the more expensive route on things like the water pump, custom pistons, rocker hold downs, head studs etc. Ray can chime in as well, he mentions in that thread where he managed to save money.

I don't know if it was ever run in a car or not but BES made a 712 hp 401? under 6500 RPM with one carb. Throw out the RPM limit and low speed TQ requirements of engine masters and it should not be that hard.

While a bunch are not yet retrofited in old lightweight muscle cars or race only cars they are running really impressive ET/MPH considering the 4500 Lb modern tanks that are out in mass.

Even the lowly 2008 345 HP 5.7 cop car responded really well to a real exhaust and long tube headers. It went from tire chirping to endless tire frying with zero other mods, unfortunately we have no drag strip around here to measure precise improvement on. The bigger motors with bigger heads should see similar or even bigger gains.

I bought my 426 shortblock used. Intake to pan including headers I only had 5k in the whole thing including motor plate and my front cover was machined when I went to DW 13. After DW, i pulled motor and Dan(rip) put new pistons in it $700, hone rings and bearings. And switched to a Dominator.

QUOTE: buy a 6.4 short block from the dealer for around $2500

Boy howdy! You are almost right. $2800-ish depending on the source.

Anyone want buy a manifold (Air gap) to pan pro built 360/EQ long block? Lol!

The newer VVT engines are not as desirable as you have to deal with the cam phasing garb and related camshaft. In production form they seem to make good power for what they are, but they would not be a first choice for a traditional power build up to swap parts on to.

I need a motor for my ride and I'm stuck between a 440 based setup or possibly a G3 based platform. I've considered a 6.4 Apache motor, but to run a simple carb and MSD box, would require the goofy cam phaser "locking" (and still using stock timing set) along with a manifold swap. And then there's the MDS junk and the MDS lifters which would need to go. Along with that, then new valve springs and pushrods would be the right thing to do...this adds up quick, not to mention all the time involved. You would have to get a really good deal on a VVT motor to cover all the band-aid fixes to make it barely reasonable for a high performance N/A breather. Of course, this doesn't really matter for an EFI forced induction.

It seems as though the greatly demonstrated pre VVT block buildups are still the way to go for a G3 performance motor. Just look at Dustin's build to see the successful and well proven approach.

Notice the the engine masters stroker buildups all use non VVT based motors.

I also agree with the statement that a G3 vs BB build will cost similar for a 600-700HP build. I've run the numbers too and its about a wash with all things considered.

I'm still very intrigued by the G3 and would like to move to this platform...we'll see

my two cents...

Some of you guys still don't get it. Most of us oldtimers are old school and can make our stuff as fast or faster BUT we know the game and how to find deals. Never and I mean never have an empty wallet when a deal comes along and be prepared to jump and not try to weasel a guy out of more money when you know it's a killer deal. Hesitation is a bad word. But deals like this are far and few for the new stuff on the market. I hope more guys switch over to gen 3's. Lol

QUOTE: But deals like this are far and few for the new stuff on the market.

Could be the wedge stuff had a 30+ year head start?

At least. LOL. Loving it more everyday.

You may get your chance for more used wedge parts. Apparently Edelbrock is coming out with a 3 valve Gen III head

Someone needs to bring out a tall deck block for these things (KeithBlack you listening?)

Saw a big gas 6.4 (truck engine, but has Hellcat heads, block, forged pistons) on EBay for 4500 ish (new crate engine). Add an SRT cam, springs, Arrow intake and you over 500 hp. Get wild with your cam, port the heads and your WELL over 600, approaching 700 if your cams burly enough and you bump compression. No need for bottom end work on that one

So what would be the power potential on a Gen III naturally aspirated engine of there were a block available to go to 500" ?

Thiteks are well over 400 cfm if I remember correctly. I'm guessing a 500" Gen III with Thiteks would break 900 and approach 1000 if a scienced out combo and you buzzed the piss out of it? Yes No???

700+hp hyd cam pump gas 400ish cube doesnt impress you something is wrong.mid/high 9sec NA pump gas hyd cam full weight street cars dont impress???i know theres not a ton of gen III stuff out there but common ill take one over an old school time bomb 440 anyday.

I think if the doubters headed over to the lxForums (or any other Gen III forums) and see some of the times those guys run at 4500 lbs and started extrapolating them to their 2800-3400 lb cars they'd be suprised

thats the prob no research has been done.......i have no dog in this fight im still oldschool myself but im not ignorant to their potential.

Just my opinion but it looks maybe a 10% better package to a comparable older engine up to a point. Mainly cubic inches, once over 450 cubes no matter how good the heads flow, once over that number the big cubes should be faster, easier to build, and at a lower rpm. Now if they make a block that can go 500 ci and over (can't see that happening with the bore spacing) no contest.

I think that was my point. Lots of people know the old small blocks and big blocks very well, know what to look for, and can do a lot of the more intricate work themselves. Same with guys who run the newer stuff. I was just trying to compare actual ballpark prices to build a turn key motors for guys who only know basic mechanics and buy pretty much everything off the shelf.

I personally prefer the old stuff and you and other members on this site have helped me save money and time building my engines. But I would like to collect parts as I come along them to build a g3, I think it wound be fun.

Lets see those time slips...Proof is ALWAYS in the math. SHow me a weight and timeslip NA. Aint hard to figure the power then. not saying I am not open to new stuff by any means, lord knows a lot of what I do it "outside the box" for most of the Mopar crowd. But dyno numbers that are not backed up by timeslip data mean very little.

I am all for the development of the Gen 3 stuff. I am just not dumping a BB and going that way right now. GOnna have to show me. And I see sone VERY LOFTY guesses as to the potential power NA. Making 1000hp is not a simple task for any NA engine let alone a SB limited cube piece. Believe me I work with a small cube 1000+hp piece all the time

A few guys have posted their time slips, NA they're in the 145+ mph range from the couple I took 5 minutes to look for. Per Wallace that puts them around 750-800 hp. One was a 468 Thiteck headed Magnum. Weighed 3250. Used a 6.1 intake, 12:1, not sure of the cam

And I wonder what those 750-800hp NA engines cost. Since that seems to be one of the matters in question. Didn't realize what you posted was NA...My bad

The 468 is an aftermarket aluminum block motor. Totally unecessary and a big expense for a Gen III unless you're wanting to cut weight, factory blocks are more than adequate. Thiteks aren't cheap, but I'd venture to guess you could get the cfm needed from an Apache/Big Gas/HellCat head. The 468 I posted wasn't maxed out, it was still using a factory intake (ported) and 12:1, room for more compression and a better intake

Thiteks are not expensive for a brand new CNC ported cylinder head! Depending on how you get them, bare castings to fully assembled, they are around $2500-3500. I got mine for $2850...Ported Castings with Stainless Valves, ready to assemble. I had my own springs locks & retainers etc.

Al,
These motors cost the same to build as it does a good small or big block of that HP caliber......$15-20+ grand. Like I tell everyone, Good parts cost good money, regardless of what you build. The disadvantage to this platform compared to the others is there is not alot of used inventory of high caliber parts floating around, like with the big blocks, small blocks, Gen 2 Hemis etc.... You want to build a stout NA deal, get ready to pay just like you would any other motor, if you do not have anything to start with.

NOBODY is making 700+ HP NA with these motors, with junkyard core and some bolt ons. Power adders, that's another story.....

VVT is soooo easy to delete, remove 4 screws on the phaser and stick something, almost anything, in the oil chamber to prevent it from moving and bolt it back together. With very little ingenuity you can even use it as an easy advance retard mechanisim instead of buying a very expensive adjustable timing set, just shim the cam forward and backward in the same oil chamber to set it where you want it.

If MDS bothers you gen a manual trans engine. If you find a screamin deal on a used one with MDS and you want to ditch it, well MDS is easy peasy also, just leave the solenoids in and don't plug em in and wa la, no MDS. You do not need to buy new lifters to delete MDS.

Neither one costs any money to eliminate.

Plus if you are planning to go the "don't touch the long block" method you get a slightly better rod (a little more meat where the 08 back would snap)and piston (lower ring friction due to thinner rings and the top ring is a little farther down) in the 09+ engines.

Steff you confirm pretty much what I suspected. Just cannot imagine it being a cheaper endeavor at all. Possibly better stock pieces available but many of us have moved well past stock anything these days.

I have been drinking the coolaid on this, collecting parts. I agree good parts cost comparable money.

A lot of it is about what the goals are. For me racing is a way of keeping myself amused and getting rid of excess cash and time.

If looking for sound investments a race engine is not were I would put my money

You cant compare aftermarket offerings against factory for all out racing.
The gen3 is the best factory offering from mopar but its not near the aftermarket bb offerings.
KB is working on the gen 3 so who knows what the future holds though

Oh they are? That's not what I heard

Apparently that was one of the goals of the reorg at KB but who knows.....

Thitek head is not just a copy of a stock head. Its port is raised and will outflow any of the factory heads. Plus you can run a dual valve spring making it far better for what we need to do.

That 468 has the 2.20 titanium valve Thitek heads on it. Ported stock 6.1 intake is extremely good. Long runners but still flows very well. And you can only build an engine that big with a factory block if you darton sleeve it.

I wonder how many late model mopars are out there running swapped in big blocks....

How would it pass emissions?

My 493 10.5-1, 590 mopar cam, edel rpm heads 600hp

Upgraded to indy ez and solid roller made around 720hp

426 6.1 base. Eagle heads. 10.5-1, .600 lift hyd cam 620ish hp

That upgrade on the BB cost alot of money. I put aluminum caps in the motor when I upgraded because I got "nervous". Roller cam and everything that goes with it. Very spendy. Going over that 600 mark seems to get much more expensive

Race cars don't have to pass emissions.....

i think it would be easier tracking down a problem with the older stuff being so simple. Watching the SO the other nite and this one dude was saying something about one " level" ? being out and would have to leave at full throttle, maybe blowing the tires off. Sounds like he needs three guys (10 years olds) with lap tops just to run each round. I race by myself and don't like the hassle, THE reason I sold my fast car.

I guess your not friends with one of the owners then?
I would think they know what KB is planning

What's the duration specs on your cam, if it's not proprietary info

250@50

You do not have to pass emissions in all states. I know you don't in my state. You can do whatever you want to a vehicle.

What do you think you'd make if you went all out? Bigger cam, more compression etc. What did your heads flow? More left in them? Your cars very impressive btw

I am just wondering where you picked up most of the 120 hp gain ? I was under the impression in stock form the basic EZ heads and Eddy RPM head are close in flow and performance ? So I am curious what EZ heads you went to and how much work was done to them ? Thanks , Ron

Every engine family has its limitations and unique features. If you are a bracket racer that needs 600(?) Hp or less, it is pretty hard to come up with a motor that can make close to that power with stock block, heads, valvetrain,etc. Sure there are expenses that you won't have with a bb, but for the size of an engine you can build with those stock parts and a stroker assembly, you would be in a Gen III fairly reasonably.
An early 5.7 with 390 to 400 cubes, stock heads that flow what, at least 300cfm as is? Any body built a combo like this with high compression and as big a cam as the stock rockers and lifters will handle?
Even if the power per$ was the same with a bb, you still shave 100+ pounds off the front end!
Obviously at some point the old wedge would pass a Gen III in hp per$ at some point, but I would think it would be. Fairly high point for budget racers.

Well, i switched to a welded up tunnel ram with MW port. I ported the EZ head. Brad H flowed it 335@6 350@7 if I remember correctly. Bigger roller cam. Might have switched to 3 500cfm carbs around that time. I found a little tunnel ram jetting trick

Right now I have an aluminum Arrow block I bought from Josh K. Short block is at Barton getting 14-1 and the moroso drag pack oil pan. Cam slightly bigger with duration in the 260s.

Heads on my current motor are eagles that flow 275@4, 310@5, and 345@6

I have 2 sets of other heads. Eagles opened up for apache valves for a smaller chamber. They go 305@4, 355@.6 i think

My apache heads go 320@4 and 360@6

I really would like Thiteks for spring options but don't have the money for them.

I had sent my awesomely running Thumpercarb to another carb builder to convert to e85 and it is running so poorly that the whole project has me disgusted. I should have never sent that carb to someone else.

Anyway, e85 stations are popping up all over around here and hoping to lose 100 lbs and make around 700hp and maybe dip into the 5s 1/8th and still drive to the track.

But I have another project that needs finished and need to complete that before the cuda gets finished

Should run hard and we can always go back to where you were on the carb............

Ray, it's funny what you said about E85 popping up down there b/c the only 2 I know of close to me are closed now.

You should just build one Cadamore

I did. Lol

If I could afford to build one right like you did I would have one. I do not want a fast one, I would want a real fast one just like that. I can honestly say my interest in the sport is heading in the wrong direction right now. It's getting harder and harder to hit the shop and I will never pay someone to do it for me so my days are numbered.