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Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
#1753380
02/12/15 08:28 PM
02/12/15 08:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
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So I'm ready to take the block to the machine shop. My bore is at 4.1845-4.1855. With that being said. Option #1 A new ring pack costs $1067, and the pistons to go with that have a 4.1745 skirt. The spec says skirt clearance must be min 0.0080 and max of 0.0100 (yeah I know a couple cylinders are at .0110) For this all I need to do is run a hone thru for diamond rings and new bearings. Option #2 open the ring lands up (above mentioned pistons) by Eric at Rebco for $210 buy off the shelf 4.185 rings (.043, .043, 3mm) and throw it back together. JE pistons told me they wouldn't open the lands up, but they said I could do whatever I want. Option #3 I have a new set of pistons, that will require boring to 4.200. I will have to buy a new set of rods $600-$800, Rings $414, and the deck will have to be taken down .0500 Everything will be nice and tight again, but I don't like the idea of milling the deck down on this really expensive block. Option #4 order custom rods ($2488) and run the new pistons with current deck height. Not really cost effective... 
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: DemonDust]
#1753381
02/12/15 08:38 PM
02/12/15 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
So I'm ready to take the block to the machine shop. My bore is at 4.1845-4.1855.
With that being said.
Option #1 A new ring pack costs $1067, and the pistons to go with that have a 4.1745 skirt. The spec says skirt clearance must be min 0.0080 and max of 0.0100 (yeah I know a couple cylinders are at .0110) For this all I need to do is run a hone thru for diamond rings and new bearings.
Option #2 open the ring lands up (above mentioned pistons) by Eric at Rebco for $210 buy off the shelf 4.185 rings (.043, .043, 3mm) and throw it back together. JE pistons told me they wouldn't open the lands up, but they said I could do whatever I want.
Option #3 I have a new set of pistons, that will require boring to 4.200. I will have to buy a new set of rods $600-$800, Rings $414, and the deck will have to be taken down .0500 Everything will be nice and tight again, but I don't like the idea of milling the deck down on this really expensive block.
Option #4 order custom rods ($2488) and run the new pistons with current deck height. Not really cost effective...
On option #2 what are your ring lands now... but this
sounds like the quickest/best and cheapest
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1753382
02/12/15 08:51 PM
02/12/15 08:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
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Currently
Groove width
Top .0318 (.81mm)
2nd .0335 (.85mm)
Oil .079 (2.01mm)
Distance from deck to first ring .1610
Distance between 1st and 2nd ring .1800
Distance between 2nd and oil .080
Last edited by R5P7Duster; 02/12/15 08:52 PM.
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: DemonDust]
#1753384
02/12/15 09:20 PM
02/12/15 09:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Currently
Groove width
Top .0318 (.81mm)
2nd .0335 (.85mm)
Oil .079 (2.01mm)
Distance from deck to first ring .1610
Distance between 1st and 2nd ring .1800
Distance between 2nd and oil .080
To cut the ring grooves is pretty easy and the small
amount wouldnt take much space
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: DemonDust]
#1753387
02/12/15 09:50 PM
02/12/15 09:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Do you think the .001 over max tolerance will be an issue?
No... I know I have gone larger.. no big deal.. and
for the money otherwise... it wouldnt happen(for me)
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: DemonDust]
#1753390
02/12/15 11:05 PM
02/12/15 11:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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Well I for one would prefer a nice round bore. Seems you are at the limit or close to it for what those pistons were designed for. I would call Total Seal and see what rings are available for bore sizs in the neighborhood of where you are and go from there. FWIW those tiny rings are probably not what you want in the first place. More for an all NA out every HP counts kinda thing.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1753392
02/12/15 11:50 PM
02/12/15 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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You could also coat the pistons. But still IMO best to start over with a fresh bore.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: DemonDust]
#1753393
02/13/15 12:10 AM
02/13/15 12:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Do you think the .001 over max tolerance will be an issue?
I've had pistons coated to .005... that didnt turn
out well for me since the coating started coming off
in a short period of time... if you knew what the next
size ring pack is then a set of custom pistons would
work.. but no way would I pay $1000 for rings.. for
me a set of all out racing rings are .043 so thats
the thinnest I would go... but if the bore is just
slightly out of round I'd hone it and run it with
machining the ring lands... your not looking for
every single HP
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1753394
02/13/15 12:13 AM
02/13/15 12:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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Well $1000 for rings is not anything new. In fact twice that is nothing new. These new tiny little rings get real expensive especially in big bores. I paid $1900 for the rings in the 99 Hemi I ran. Pistons were another $2600 but this is 4.700 bore stuff.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1753395
02/13/15 12:19 AM
02/13/15 12:19 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Well $1000 for rings is not anything new. In fact twice that is nothing new. These new tiny little rings get real expensive especially in big bores. I paid $1900 for the rings in the 99 Hemi I ran. Pistons were another $2600 but this is 4.700 bore stuff.
I'm glad for you Al... not me.. I wont spend that kind
of money for a set of rings... OR a set of pistons..
and I have bought plenty of custom pistons.... a race
set of rings is .043... I dont need the odd ball stuff
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1753396
02/13/15 12:29 AM
02/13/15 12:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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Cost money to make power no way around it. We all have to do what we are comfortable with. In my case I was trying to fly the Mopar flag in the heads up NA world. We won a couple of races and finished 2nd in one sanctioning body and top 10 in the NMCA so I feel I did ok. Was it worth the expense, not sure to be honest.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1753397
02/13/15 12:34 AM
02/13/15 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Cost money to make power no way around it.
Thats where you and I differ... I am a bracket racer
and dont need the big power... I want it to live a
long life and be consistent... thats why I build light
cars.. easy on parts and goes quick on not a ton of power
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1753398
02/13/15 12:37 AM
02/13/15 12:37 AM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 174
Oklahoma
hemiiroc
member
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member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 174
Oklahoma
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Quote:
The motor is already at pretty much max suggested clearance for the pistons you have............so let me throw another option in there. Hone the block to whatever size gets it clean and straight. Buy a custom piston, for THAT bore size, that fits your current rod length and get the ring pack you WANT.
Monte
X2 ...By far the best thing to do
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Re: Engine build Dilema... Which way to go????
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1753399
02/13/15 12:39 AM
02/13/15 12:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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Well I am a Super Class and bracket racer too. The B1 from the Cuda makes real good power and has over 600 laps on it and can go 170 off the stop. As I say we all have a comfort zone. I prefer to have some MPH on my side in the .90 stuff and that takes HP. I also like to go fast when I can and aint gonna run 7's on 800hp in a door car. The new car is nothing more than a fast bracket car in Top Sportsman. Don't worry I will get old one day and slow down  But I understand you message loud and clear. And agree for the average bracket guy an .043 ring is pretty racey
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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It adds between .0018 to .0025 to the O.D., the ring lands have to be recut also so maybe that is another option 
If so try calling Embree CO (Aerospace) at 714-546-6907 
, any decent amchine shop with a Suunen CK10 or later machine can hone any bores straight with the new Diamond stone hones they have now