Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
#174172
12/24/08 04:51 PM
12/24/08 04:51 PM
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moparniac
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where do you guys or how are you getting the pinion angle of the dana 60 thx... I have caltracs and no pinion snubber pad... Iput the angle finder on the back of the tranny seal and on the yoke on the dana 60....
Last edited by wedgeOmatic; 12/24/08 04:57 PM.
Mopar Performance
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: moparniac]
#174173
12/24/08 06:09 PM
12/24/08 06:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,719 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Quote:
where do you guys or how are you getting the pinion angle of the dana 60 thx... I have caltracs and no pinion snubber pad...
Iput the angle finder on the back of the tranny seal and on the yoke on the dana 60....
NO, the pinion angle as reffferrred to in the Mopar chassis manuals is the difference between the driveshaft and the pinion flange or the seat where the U joints sit against the pinion seats. Does your pinion flange have a machine surface on the outside edges? If so disconnect one of the pinion straps or U bolts so you can accurately measure off of the surface. The driveshaft angle on the front in relationship to the trans is another seperate angle. There are some racers, book smart people that always throw the trans angle discusion into pinion angle, not the same thing.Two different entitiys, IMO. Which both need to be right to get the car to work properly, again in my opinion Merry Christmas to all and please have a happy and sane New Year
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: B G Racing]
#174175
12/24/08 06:57 PM
12/24/08 06:57 PM
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Quicktree
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don't listen to these old geezers Pinion Angle Tired of breaking cases and drive shafts? There are many books that misled you on setting the pinion angle. For Drag Racing this is simple. You are trying to set the pinion angle to be parallel with the centerline of the engine & transmission on hard acceleration. To achieve this you must first figure out the parallel setting of the rear end to correspond to the angle of the engine & transmission, then add the proper amount of pinion angle. Add 1 deg. for 4-Link vehicles, 2 to 3 deg. for ladder-bar vehicles. Place stands under suspension to duplicate vehicle at ride height. Caution do not remove drive shaft without securing vehicle first. Take measurement with drive shaft removed.
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: Quicktree]
#174176
12/24/08 07:32 PM
12/24/08 07:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Quote:
don't listen to these old geezers
Pinion Angle Tired of breaking cases and drive shafts? There are many books that misled you on setting the pinion angle. For Drag Racing this is simple. You are trying to set the pinion angle to be parallel with the centerline of the engine & transmission on hard acceleration. To achieve this you must first figure out the parallel setting of the rear end to correspond to the angle of the engine & transmission, then add the proper amount of pinion angle. Add 1 deg. for 4-Link vehicles, 2 to 3 deg. for ladder-bar vehicles. Place stands under suspension to duplicate vehicle at ride height. Caution do not remove drive shaft without securing vehicle first. Take measurement with drive shaft removed.
Any one can regurgitate what they read in a book or repeat some one else.Are you gonna crap your self when some one disproves Einsteins Theorys?What if you have a trans angle that is acute to the working angle of the rear u-joint.Do you point the pinion nose into the dirt to give it that certain degree of relationship.No,you adjust the trans tail shaft angle to the working angle of the u-joints and the same with the rearend pinion angle,then adjust the negative degress for wrap up alignment under load.The relationship of the trans angle and pinion angle is determined with what links them together,I read somewhere it's called a driveshaft or propeller shaft.Once you establish the geometry of the best working range of the u-joints you have created the plane of alignment.Now you adjust for reaction movement(final alignment under load)static pinion angle to torque load movement.Since the trans is in a fix position and only the rearend rotation is the only reaction movement,1 degree with 4 link,2 degrees with ladder bar and 4 to 6 degrees recommended for ,springs,you are ready to set your pinion angle to the shaft.I read this some where long,long ago.I think this crap was studyed very hard on when driveshafts were were a fixed solid tube with a ball and trunion joint at only one end.Anyone remember those?Your turn
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: moparniac]
#174182
12/24/08 10:46 PM
12/24/08 10:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,719 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Measure the drivesahft angle and the pinion angle with your angle finder and then do the math to get the differences between the two, that is what is called the pinion angle in all of the old Mopar chassis manuals, believe it or not For instance, if the driveshaft measures 90 degrees on your angle finder and the pinon measures 87 with the pinion nose down instead of up you have 3 degrees differences in the correct way, if the pinion is pointed up then you need to rotate the rear end housing down 6 to 9 degrees to get 3 to 6 nose down in relation to the driveshaft. If the driveshaft measures two degrees left of the 90 degree mark looking at it from the drivers side and the pinion measures three degrees right of the 90 degree mark you add the two measurements up which comes to five degrees which will work fine on a Cal Track car, usually. Some Cal track cars need more and some need less. If the driveshaft reads two degrees left of the 90 degree mark and the pinion reads 3 or more degrees left of the 90 degree mark also then the rear end housing needs to be rotated down down to get the needed dergrees of difference. Nothing to it, huh Keep at it, get it done corerectly now and prevent damage later
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#174184
12/25/08 12:19 AM
12/25/08 12:19 AM
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Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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First, Merry Christmas Those old MP manuals had Lots of good info. In general thier advice on pinion angle was decent and works Fine in most cases. U joints are forgiving and in alot of cases measuring pinion angle off the Drive shaft works fine. And that Is what the MP manuals referred to as Pinion angle. But those old school guys were wrong But not that wrong that thier advice was bad. Pinion angle off the drive shaft is just that, and that Only. Lets take a example desired number, say 4* pinion down. We want 4* for a pinion angle with our setup. And our car just happens to have a Perfect alingment between the Tranny and rear pinion. Pinion-----------------------Tranny 0----------shaft-------------0 Like this! This diagram shows 0 down pinion angle and we Dont want that, so we lower the rear pinion angle by 4* to the shaft as the MP manuel states. In this case it works out Perfect!! And you are indeed 4* pinion Down, not only on the Shaft, but from the Parallel angle off the "pinion and the tranny" too. Now in the real world the tranny cl is hardly ever perfectly inline with the pinion cl. Throw in some SS springs to the mix your rear pinion and tranny are far from centerline. So lets say that because of the above , the rear pinion cl is down say, 3.36" inches from the tranny centerline but yet they are still parellel with each other. Whats our driveshaft doing, since the rear is down? At a 4'length its angling down at 4* towards the Pinion from the tranny. Doing it the MP manuel way in this case, you wouldnt adjust the pinion down from the Shaft, because your already at 4* down. Yep your 4* down from the shaft, but unlike in the first scenario you are not 4* down from the tranny and pinion parallel angle as you were in the First scenario. In the first example 4* down from the shaft is 4* down from parallel. In the second example 4* down from the shaft is 0* down from parallel. We wanted 4* down for the setup. In the first example all the old dogs would of adjusted for it. In the second example the old dogs would of said its dead on wrong Im an old dog myself, But Ive been enlitend. I like Hellen Keller spent many years in the darkness. But the lite is now shining Old dogs Follow the lite With due respect to all, Merry Christmas, mike
Last edited by Sport440; 12/25/08 02:12 AM.
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: moparniac]
#174185
12/25/08 12:36 AM
12/25/08 12:36 AM
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I can tell you a easy way to measure it(which ever way you wish to do it). If you want to go off of the drive shaft... car on stands, in neutral, have the rear U-joint level... now take a socket that fits the U-joint cup set it on the bottom cup, take a reading with your protractor on the socket (the socket is nothing but a spacer). Turn the U- joint 90* and do the same thing again and look at the reading, remember that you want the nose lower. If you take the reading from the trans do the same thing but only on the yoke side at the trans and the other reading on the rear U-joint on the diff side of it..... very simple and you dont pull the drive shaft
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: moparniac]
#174186
12/25/08 02:02 AM
12/25/08 02:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi
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PINION angle is the difference between the angle of the engine/trans centerline and the PINION, and NOTHING ELSE. U-JOINT angle is the difference between the driveshaft and the engine/trans in the front, and the driveshaft and pinion in the rear, and NOTHING ELSE. You want the centerline of trans and pinion to be parallel under power, with about 1-2* of u-joint angle to make the joints wear properly, and to cancel vibration. Measure with the weight on the rear axle. So, to make it easy, if the trans is level - 0*, you want about 2* down on the driveshaft, and the pinion level -0*- as a baseline. Add to the rear u-joint angle 0* for a 4 link, 1-2* for ladders, and 3-5* for leaf cars. So in this application, the trans would be 0* (level), you would have -2* front u-joint angle, the driveshaft would be angled down 2*, +6* rear u-joint angle, and +4* (FROM LEVEL) downward pinion angle for a leaf spring car. This gives the correct (-2* and +2*) U-JOINT ANGLES under power, after the springs wrap up 4*. My printer is down, so I can't draw it and scan it to post, but this is the correct way to measure U-JOINT and PINION ANGLES.
Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: Sport440]
#174187
12/25/08 04:03 AM
12/25/08 04:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
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Quote:
First, Merry Christmas
Those old MP manuals had Lots of good info. In general thier advice on pinion angle was decent and works Fine in most cases.
U joints are forgiving and in alot of cases measuring pinion angle off the Drive shaft works fine.
And that Is what the MP manuals referred to as Pinion angle. But those old school guys were wrong But not that wrong that thier advice was bad.
Pinion angle off the drive shaft is just that, and that Only.
Lets take a example desired number, say 4* pinion down. We want 4* for a pinion angle with our setup.
And our car just happens to have a Perfect alingment between the Tranny and rear pinion.
Pinion-----------------------Tranny
0----------shaft-------------0 Like this!
This diagram shows 0 down pinion angle and we Dont want that, so we lower the rear pinion angle by 4* to the shaft as the MP manuel states. In this case it works out Perfect!! And you are indeed 4* pinion Down, not only on the Shaft, but from the Parallel angle off the "pinion and the tranny" too.
Now in the real world the tranny cl is hardly ever perfectly inline with the pinion cl. Throw in some SS springs to the mix your rear pinion and tranny are far from centerline.
So lets say that because of the above , the rear pinion cl is down say, 3.36" inches from the tranny centerline but yet they are still parellel with each other.
Whats our driveshaft doing, since the rear is down? At a 4'length its angling down at 4* towards the Pinion from the tranny.
Doing it the MP manuel way in this case, you wouldnt adjust the pinion down from the Shaft, because your already at 4* down.
Yep your 4* down from the shaft, but unlike in the first scenario you are not 4* down from the tranny and pinion parallel angle as you were in the First scenario.
In the first example 4* down from the shaft is 4* down from parallel.
In the second example 4* down from the shaft is 0* down from parallel.
We wanted 4* down for the setup. In the first example all the old dogs would of adjusted for it.
In the second example the old dogs would of said its dead on wrong
Im an old dog myself, But Ive been enlitend. I like Hellen Keller spent many years in the darkness.
But the lite is now shining Old dogs Follow the lite
With due respect to all, Merry Christmas, mike
Merry Christmas Mike and everyone else. but you know we can't convince some of these guys know matter how well it is explained
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: Quicktree]
#174188
12/25/08 06:04 AM
12/25/08 06:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295 U.S.
moparniac
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Last edited by wedgeOmatic; 12/25/08 06:08 AM.
Mopar Performance
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Re: Measuring pinion angle for Dana 60
[Re: moparniac]
#174190
12/25/08 09:35 AM
12/25/08 09:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi
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WedgeOmatic, excellant diagram and chart. Pretty much what I said on my post, and on the 10 or so other times I have posted on this. They call "working angle" what I call "u-joint" angle, but the result is the same. The chart is a touch more aggressive than I posted, but I certainly wouldn't argue with it. I also shoot for an absolute max of 10* on any "working angle", so on leaf spring cars that have high angles I will limit spring wrap-up with Cal-Tracs, slappers, etc. Good work on the chart, and Merry Christmas!
Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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