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Head gaskets didn't seal
#1656277
08/08/14 12:00 AM
08/08/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
GregY
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
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Guys,
My rebuilt, 60-over, 440 runs great except for the fact that passenger side head gasket (8519 PT) apparently didn't seal. I tore it apart tonight and it was leaking coolant into the No. 4 cylinder, but the gasket wasn't blown. The motor has Eddy aluminum heads and only 9:1 compression.
Before I took the heads off, I checked the torque on the bolts, I didn't get any movement at 70 foot lbs. However, when I undid the bolts, they seemed to undo at varying degrees of effort, and I wonder if that was problem.
Anyway, I am ordering new gaskets and am going to try again. Does anyone have any advice? I have successfully changed head gaskets before without any problems, I am not sure what went wrong.
Thanks.
Greg
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656278
08/08/14 12:03 AM
08/08/14 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Maybe some were overtorqued, who assembled it? Did you check for overhang into the combustion chamber?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1656281
08/08/14 12:18 AM
08/08/14 12:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
GregY
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
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The block was decked and the heads are brand new OOTB Eddy. I can double check those now that the motor is apart. I would hope the heads aren't cracked.
I guess I am not sure whether the surfaces are rough or smooth. The machine shop knew I was putting on aluminum heads.
Last edited by GregY; 08/08/14 12:19 AM.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656284
08/08/14 12:37 AM
08/08/14 12:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Chase the block threads with a thread chaser tap & blow em out clean with the nozzle that goes all the way in to the bottom of blind holes. I dip bolt threads in 30wt eng oil then blow em off with shop air. As you know torque in multiple stages. Good visual inspection of the new gasket. yes check the head deck flatness. I'm assuming those Felpro's are Ok with alum heads, not sure but I've heard Cometics are a good choice for that app (iron block/alum heads) but wait for someone to elaborate further. EDIT Reuse (good thread visual tho)
Last edited by RapidRobert; 08/08/14 12:45 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656287
08/08/14 03:51 AM
08/08/14 03:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
SE PA
Yellow Fever
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
SE PA
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Quote:
Would you guys reuse the head bolts? Or buy new ones?
ARP's? I always bought the recommended head bolts with any aluminum heads. Check for stretch and reuse if ok.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656290
08/08/14 10:43 AM
08/08/14 10:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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Those are the cheaper gaskets.Try a set of FelPro Marine gaskets.I use them with Stealth heads and no problems.I used ARP bolts on mine.Just make sure to torque in 3 stages and use lube.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1656291
08/08/14 11:20 AM
08/08/14 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Head bolts bottomed out?
Sheldon
or the dowel pins ?
A friend .. RIP  ... Had a similar issue , but it wasn't the head bolts bottoming , it was the threads in the block were screwed up and gave a FALSE torque reading , 2 sets of gaskets later ... 20 plus qts of oil and 2 trips to a big name hemi builder in Pa. that didn't do it right the first 2 times ... I told him it should have head studs instead of bolts on a race engine making 800 pls HP and Alum heads, switched to head studs and problem solved ...
I'm not suggesting that this build needs studs ...
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: JohnRR]
#1656292
08/08/14 11:40 AM
08/08/14 11:40 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
Head bolts bottomed out?
Sheldon
or the dowel pins ?
Agreed...I've seen head gasket problems (blow outs) from having milled heads, and decked blocks an the assembler didn't dry fit (no gasket) the head to see if the dowels were too long....sometimes it's the simplest of things that cause major issues, always double check everything
mike
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656295
08/08/14 03:12 PM
08/08/14 03:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: BSB67]
#1656296
08/08/14 08:20 PM
08/08/14 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
GregY
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,194
Rochester, New York
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Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Last edited by GregY; 08/08/14 08:23 PM.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656297
08/08/14 08:34 PM
08/08/14 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Have you taken it apart yet ? If not pull the intake , drain the oil , pull the plug on that cylinder , leave the drain plug out fill the cooling system and get a pressure testor on it and pump up the system to see if you can pin point the leak ???
If the head is off see if you can borrow a torque plate and pump it up , but with the head off a cracked cylinder wall should be easy to spot ...
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: JohnRR]
#1656299
08/11/14 10:05 PM
08/11/14 10:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Have you taken it apart yet ? If not pull the intake , drain the oil , pull the plug on that cylinder , leave the drain plug out fill the cooling system and get a pressure testor on it and pump up the system to see if you can pin point the leak ???
If the head is off see if you can borrow a torque plate and pump it up , but with the head off a cracked cylinder wall should be easy to spot ...
Exactly what he said.
You've made bit of an assumption that it is a head gasket or head surface. You could be right, but you should have done a pressure test to find the leak before you took it apart. If there is no smoking gun, I recommend that you put the head back on that bank and pressure test with air. Although unlikely, it could be a head combustion chamber or exhaust port crack as well.
Last edited by BSB67; 08/11/14 10:10 PM.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: Dodgem]
#1656301
08/12/14 02:05 PM
08/12/14 02:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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IMO you don't need studs - but you might want to use the right head gaskets. The Felpro stock type are not pre-flattened wire - per Edelbrock they should be to avoid long term sealing issues. You should be using the Performance 1009s. If those leaked - have the head(s) & block checked for flatness and preferably not by the shop that cut it.
Edit after re-reading... If the egnine blew a 1009 - you have more issues than a clamping problem. What are the rest of the particulars on this engine? Pistons? Actual measured compression, timing setup, etc. What do the spark plugs look like?
Last edited by moper; 08/12/14 02:07 PM.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656302
08/12/14 09:16 PM
08/12/14 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
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The Edelbrock gaskets are sourced to them by Fel Pro and are the 8519 PT gaskets.
Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
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Re: Head gaskets didn't seal
[Re: GregY]
#1656303
08/12/14 10:40 PM
08/12/14 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
They were the recommended Edelbrock head bolts.
At this point I will probably just pony up and buy new ones. What's another $100? Once my car makes me broke and insane, the $100 will be the least of my worries.
These are Different as DogDays suggest! reuse them 
I think your Bolts were hydraulic locking on torque down from unclean holes giving you false torque readings Or you have a water leak in a cylinder or something. A decked block and new Eddyies at 9.5 comp shouldnt leak at all with the PT 8519pti,s. Something else is going on.
Your variable release torque forces of the head bolts were a indicater of that, IMO
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The fel pro marine gaskets are what you need to fit your .060 over bore. Also had the bottoming out issue with ARP bolts. The middle row of bolts were not seating on the head when torqued.