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Head gaskets didn't seal
Posted By: GregY
Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:00 AM
Guys,
My rebuilt, 60-over, 440 runs great except for the fact that passenger side head gasket (8519 PT) apparently didn't seal. I tore it apart tonight and it was leaking coolant into the No. 4 cylinder, but the gasket wasn't blown. The motor has Eddy aluminum heads and only 9:1 compression.
Before I took the heads off, I checked the torque on the bolts, I didn't get any movement at 70 foot lbs. However, when I undid the bolts, they seemed to undo at varying degrees of effort, and I wonder if that was problem.
Anyway, I am ordering new gaskets and am going to try again. Does anyone have any advice? I have successfully changed head gaskets before without any problems, I am not sure what went wrong.
Thanks.
Greg
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:03 AM
Maybe some were overtorqued, who assembled it? Did you check for overhang into the combustion chamber?
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:11 AM
Several things we need more information on, what condition(rough, semi rough or smooth) are the surfaces on the head and block on that side? Are the head and block straight with no warpage?
When you say the gasket is not blown, how about cracks in the head or cyclinder? Good luck, let us know what you find out
Posted By: GregY
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:12 AM
I assembled it. I tried to be careful and lube the bolts/shoulders/washers. I did not check for overhang.
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
I didn't see any evidence this one was blown, it appears it just didn't seal. Or the block is cracked, I guess could be the other option, but I had it checked first.
Hopefully I just screwed up and if I am more careful this time it will be okay.
Posted By: GregY
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:18 AM
The block was decked and the heads are brand new OOTB Eddy. I can double check those now that the motor is apart. I would hope the heads aren't cracked.
I guess I am not sure whether the surfaces are rough or smooth. The machine shop knew I was putting on aluminum heads.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:28 AM
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:32 AM
Head bolts bottomed out?
Sheldon
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:37 AM
Chase the block threads with a thread chaser tap & blow em out clean with the nozzle that goes all the way in to the bottom of blind holes. I dip bolt threads in 30wt eng oil then blow em off with shop air. As you know torque in multiple stages. Good visual inspection of the new gasket. yes check the head deck flatness. I'm assuming those Felpro's are Ok with alum heads, not sure but I've heard Cometics are a good choice for that app (iron block/alum heads) but wait for someone to elaborate further. EDIT Reuse (good thread visual tho)
Posted By: GregY
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:40 AM
Would you guys reuse the head bolts? Or buy new ones?
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:44 AM
I re-use them in a stock application but I'm not sure if they are recommended with the Edelbrock heads.
I didn't mean to interrupt Cab but it just struck me when you said it took different amounts of force to back the bolts out.
Sheldon
Posted By: Yellow Fever
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 07:51 AM
Quote:
Would you guys reuse the head bolts? Or buy new ones?
ARP's? I always bought the recommended head bolts with any aluminum heads. Check for stretch and reuse if ok.
Posted By: GregY
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 12:23 PM
They were the recommended Edelbrock head bolts.
At this point I will probably just pony up and buy new ones. What's another $100? Once my car makes me broke and insane, the $100 will be the least of my worries.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 02:40 PM
Quote:
At this point I will probably just pony up and buy new ones. What's another $100? Once my car makes me broke and insane, the $100 will be the least of my worries.
I like this guy 
Posted By: therocks
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 02:43 PM
Those are the cheaper gaskets.Try a set of FelPro Marine gaskets.I use them with Stealth heads and no problems.I used ARP bolts on mine.Just make sure to torque in 3 stages and use lube.Rocky
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 03:20 PM
Quote:
Head bolts bottomed out?
Sheldon
or the dowel pins ?
A friend .. RIP 
... Had a similar issue , but it wasn't the head bolts bottoming , it was the threads in the block were screwed up and gave a FALSE torque reading , 2 sets of gaskets later ... 20 plus qts of oil and 2 trips to a big name hemi builder in Pa. that didn't do it right the first 2 times ... I told him it should have head studs instead of bolts on a race engine making 800 pls HP and Alum heads, switched to head studs and problem solved ...
I'm not suggesting that this build needs studs ...
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 03:40 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Head bolts bottomed out?
Sheldon
or the dowel pins ?
Agreed...I've seen head gasket problems (blow outs) from having milled heads, and decked blocks an the assembler didn't dry fit (no gasket) the head to see if the dowels were too long....sometimes it's the simplest of things that cause major issues, always double check everything
mike
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 04:35 PM
Yup, very possible.
Sheldon
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 06:30 PM
These aren't torque-to-yield bolts. Reuse'em. Period.
Replacing them is just stupid. Don't be that guy.
It is SO EASY for someone else to tell you to spend money unnecessarily, after all they don't feel your pain.
ANY USA-made Grade 8 bolt can stand hundreds, if not thousands of torquings to less than yield stress without losing its strength or stretching. That's why we use steel for bolts.
Do you feel that I'm yelling? I am. The amount of superstition and needless replacement of parts on this board is enough to drive me nuts.
My mercedes engine has torque-to-yield rod bolts. So what does the factory service manual say about replacement? It says reuse them until the necked down area is less than a specified dimension. These bolts are torqued past their yield point (they permanently stretch) during assembly, and it would be easy for M-B to say replace them, but they know that's not necessary. I measured them, they were well above the spec, reused them and took the engine to redline the first time out. 6500 rpm with a reused torque-to-yield rod bolt? No sweat. That's what mechanical engineers are for.
R.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/08/14 07:12 PM
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
Posted By: GregY
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/09/14 12:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/09/14 12:34 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Have you taken it apart yet ? If not pull the intake , drain the oil , pull the plug on that cylinder , leave the drain plug out fill the cooling system and get a pressure testor on it and pump up the system to see if you can pin point the leak ???
If the head is off see if you can borrow a torque plate and pump it up , but with the head off a cracked cylinder wall should be easy to spot ...
Posted By: MLR426
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/11/14 05:20 PM
Also check for tweeked rod from coolant being in cylinder. Not saying this is the case but I lightly mill all new heads due to new head stress relieving in the box. In many cases it takes .006 thous to straighten a new head aluminum or cast iron. A high speed head and block mill for good surfaces using CBN for cast iron and PCD for aluminum heads. Surfacing Button materials used are Cubic Boron Nitrate (CBN) and Polycrystalite Diamond (PCD). When using MLS gaskets use a high speed mill ONLY for great surface finishes.
MLR426
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/12/14 02:05 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I used some FelPro 1009's once that apparently overhung and blew.
When exactly did this happen? Was it with these heads and after the machining?
How did you discover that water was getting into a cylinder?
No this was in the motors old days. All the stuff (heads/machine work) is new. Motor was broken in and dyno tested, the shop didn't report any problems. Started spewing coolant as soon as I got it installed (which was like a year after I got it back, I am a slow worker) and started it.
The water got in the oil too, not just the combustion chamber. Does that offer any clues as to what is happening?
Also, I am not going to buy new head bolts, I am going to check the bolt and dowel lenghts, and I am going to buy better gaskets, probably the recommended Edelbrock 7325.
Maybe I am already insane, and that is causing my car problems, not the other way around!
Thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated.
Greg
Have you taken it apart yet ? If not pull the intake , drain the oil , pull the plug on that cylinder , leave the drain plug out fill the cooling system and get a pressure testor on it and pump up the system to see if you can pin point the leak ???
If the head is off see if you can borrow a torque plate and pump it up , but with the head off a cracked cylinder wall should be easy to spot ...
Exactly what he said.
You've made bit of an assumption that it is a head gasket or head surface. You could be right, but you should have done a pressure test to find the leak before you took it apart. If there is no smoking gun, I recommend that you put the head back on that bank and pressure test with air. Although unlikely, it could be a head combustion chamber or exhaust port crack as well.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/12/14 05:33 PM
Buy a stud kit best all round results.
Posted By: moper
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/12/14 06:05 PM
IMO you don't need studs - but you might want to use the right head gaskets. The Felpro stock type are not pre-flattened wire - per Edelbrock they should be to avoid long term sealing issues. You should be using the Performance 1009s. If those leaked - have the head(s) & block checked for flatness and preferably not by the shop that cut it.
Edit after re-reading... If the egnine blew a 1009 - you have more issues than a clamping problem. What are the rest of the particulars on this engine? Pistons? Actual measured compression, timing setup, etc. What do the spark plugs look like?
Posted By: Chris2581
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/13/14 01:16 AM
The Edelbrock gaskets are sourced to them by Fel Pro and are the 8519 PT gaskets.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/13/14 02:40 AM
Quote:
They were the recommended Edelbrock head bolts.
At this point I will probably just pony up and buy new ones. What's another $100? Once my car makes me broke and insane, the $100 will be the least of my worries.
These are Different as DogDays suggest! reuse them
I think your Bolts were hydraulic locking on torque down from unclean holes giving you false torque readings Or you have a water leak in a cylinder or something. A decked block and new Eddyies at 9.5 comp shouldnt leak at all with the PT 8519pti,s. Something else is going on.
Your variable release torque forces of the head bolts were a indicater of that, IMO
Posted By: moper
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/14/14 02:01 PM
Quote:
The Edelbrock gaskets are sourced to them by Fel Pro and are the 8519 PT gaskets.
So it must be right?
That's not what Felpro recommends for aluminum heads.
I don't run Edelbtrock's springs or their valve job either because it's been proven time and time again that they suck. Edelbrock says that's all acceptable too. I suppose it's never a problem until it is.
Posted By: 71yelladustr
Re: Head gaskets didn't seal - 08/15/14 01:40 AM
I just went through a similar situation when I put aluminum heads on my .060 over 440. Tried the factory replacement fel pro and the 1009 fel pro gaskets and BOTH overhang into the .060 over cylinders. Even though they say they fit up to a 4.400 bore, the fire rings were hanging in the cylinders at 4.380 bore.
The fel pro marine gaskets are what you need to fit your .060 over bore. Also had the bottoming out issue with ARP bolts. The middle row of bolts were not seating on the head when torqued.
