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Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639012
06/27/14 05:43 PM
06/27/14 05:43 PM
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Washington State
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lorenr Offline
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That internal oil pickup looks suspect. Did the rod bearing look like it wasn't getting oil?

I would suspect that a heavy car like that with a 500 cu in engine would need a pretty good external oiling system.

Loren


Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: lorenr] #1639013
06/27/14 06:21 PM
06/27/14 06:21 PM
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I wouldn't even consider a crank thats been though that even if it did CLean up

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: lorenr] #1639014
06/27/14 06:27 PM
06/27/14 06:27 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

That internal oil pickup looks suspect. Did the rod bearing look like it wasn't getting oil?

I would suspect that a heavy car like that with a 500 cu in engine would need a pretty good external oiling system.

Loren




The stock 3/8 internal pickup was hit by one of the rod pieces, it is really bent up in the pictures I had positioned it on the bottom of the oil pan with 1/8 inch clearances between the back edge of the pickup and the front edge of the pickup touching the bottom of the oil pan I run loose bearing clearances, .003+ on the rods and mains, I only use main bearings with full grooves All the other rod and main bearings look really good for a motor that started off in 1998 as a pump gas motor As I stated earlier, this failure still has me puzzled It has been over revved more than once looking at the back sides of the roller cam lobes now I'm thinking a piece of dirt or debris got washed in between the #1 rod bearing and crankshaft and that ended up seizing the bearing to the crankshaft To much damage now to tell, I can only guess AndyF, are you working on any interesting engine projects now?


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639015
06/27/14 07:03 PM
06/27/14 07:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
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Canada
onig Offline
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Canada
Quote:

Quote:

It has been over revved more than once looking at the back sides of the roller cam lobes now




That is an interesting statement.
What exactly are you looking for to tell that is was over-revved. Do the rollers "hit" the back side of the cam instead of rolling over them because it is spinning too fast?
I would like to see a pic of these lobes that you mentioned to understand your thinking and what to look for. I want to learn something here.


69 Dart
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: onig] #1639016
06/27/14 08:03 PM
06/27/14 08:03 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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When the lifter goes over the nose of the cam it goes airborne so to speak and when it lands, it beats the crap out of the heel of the cam and the roller too. Think beat cam with hammer and chisel and imagine the damage.

Kevin

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Twostick] #1639017
06/27/14 09:27 PM
06/27/14 09:27 PM
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Canada
onig Offline
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That's what I was thinking happens, but wanted to confirm. Good to know, thanks.


69 Dart
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: onig] #1639018
06/27/14 10:38 PM
06/27/14 10:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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central ohio
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nss guy Offline
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pretty common knowledge 300+ 1/4 miles runs on a motor makein 600+ hp the main cap webbing starts to crack. Time to swap out the block before a catastophic failure. It's like changing the oil or any other kind of maintenance

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639019
06/27/14 11:03 PM
06/27/14 11:03 PM
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NC
440Jim Offline
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Sounds like a lot of years on a race short block without checking/replacing at least the bearings.

I hate to hear of big failures when preventative maintenance might have avoided it.

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: 440Jim] #1639020
06/28/14 12:49 AM
06/28/14 12:49 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

Sounds like a lot of years on a race short block without checking/replacing at least the bearings.

I hate to hear of big failures when preventative maintenance might have avoided it.


This one was built to be a pump gas motor that might make 8 to 10 passes in the 1/4 in its life to find out what the car would run at LACR back in the 1990s, mainly a trailer queen that was taken to car shows. Plans and things change, you wouldn't beleive the whole story behind this rascal It bit me on the butt twice , I didn't want to use that block to start with due to two external cracks and one internal casting flaw in the cooling passages at the bottom of #6 cylinder that leak coolant into the motor from day one OH WELL some lessons are hard to learn and enforce I now insist that it is my way in my shop or I don't take the job on Sometimes it does not pay to be nice to the customer and go out of your way to make them happy, especially when it ends up making both of you very unhappy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639021
06/28/14 01:06 AM
06/28/14 01:06 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Glycol is death on bearings.

8v92 Detroits were famous for losing their liner seals and dumping coolant in the base. The low coolant light usually came on at the same time it spun all the crank bearings.

Kevin

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Twostick] #1639022
06/28/14 01:02 PM
06/28/14 01:02 PM
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Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline
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ouch, but sounds like it did its job for a long time. They all die eventually...


2 kids and a dog
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: onig] #1639023
06/28/14 02:12 PM
06/28/14 02:12 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:


What exactly are you looking for to tell that is was over-revved. Do the rollers "hit" the back side of the cam instead of rolling over them because it is spinning too fast?
I would like to see a pic of these lobes that you mentioned to understand your thinking and what to look for. I want to learn something here.


Here you go , the back side of the lobes show the lifter hitting them (sliding down instead of rolling over the nose like they should) marking them up differentily than the front side The lobe on the far right hand side in this pictures is on the opening side so , hopefully, you can see both sides of a lobe on this cam

8190183-SANY0242.JPG (107 downloads)

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639024
06/28/14 02:13 PM
06/28/14 02:13 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Hopefully this picture will show the opening lobe better

8190184-SANY0243.JPG (101 downloads)

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Twostick] #1639025
06/28/14 02:16 PM
06/28/14 02:16 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

Glycol is death on bearings.

8v92 Detroits were famous for losing their liner seals and dumping coolant in the base. The low coolant light usually came on at the same time it spun all the crank bearings.

Kevin


All the block flaws where fixed before I built it the first time, no Glycol in these bearings


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639026
06/28/14 02:27 PM
06/28/14 02:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Granite Bay CA
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Interesting subject on "over-revving". This would surely be a symptom to look no matter the cam type, right?
A Flat tappet would show the same damage to the cam if repeatedly over revved, correct?

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639027
06/28/14 02:28 PM
06/28/14 02:28 PM
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aZLiViN
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RPM can play a pretty big part in how long a RB can last too. My old RB sweet spot was a 5600-5800 shift point and 6200 trap speed and was 9.93/136 capable at sea level.

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1639028
06/28/14 10:41 PM
06/28/14 10:41 PM
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Canada
onig Offline
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Cab, thanks for the pics. Never seen that before, but it all makes sense.
How deep is the pounding, looks/guessing around a 1/16"?
Could a similar situation show on the lobes if the springs were too weak also?


69 Dart
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: onig] #1639029
06/29/14 01:02 AM
06/29/14 01:02 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Many things can cause the lifter to float , weak valve springs is one of them To many RPMs is another, especially in the burn out box The cam lobe design is a major factor in that also I just checked two of the valve springs on that motor, one of them has lost 20 lbs on the seat and more at max lift The customer did over rev the motor at the MATS race, he forgot to shift it into high gear on one run Lots of gremlins out there, many of them are man made As far as how deep on the grooves on those lobes I didn't measure or feel them, it has damages to one lobe from the flying motor pieces so I will send it in for repairs and ask them to regrind all the lobes so we can start fresh with a unblemished cam.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: onig] #1639030
06/29/14 04:37 PM
06/29/14 04:37 PM
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Central Ohio, USA
Bigbeep Offline
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Could a similar situation show on the lobes if the springs were too weak also?




My thought exactly! What is the recommended rpm range on the cam and where was it being operated at. My have been too light on the spring pressure if it really sees a lot of passes. Beep

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! [Re: Bigbeep] #1639031
06/29/14 06:52 PM
06/29/14 06:52 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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Not knocking what they want you to build because some guys can destroy an anvil. But seeing that pickup tube would scare me. IMO i want a duel line system for anything over 5000 rpm. I see cars with stock or deep pans twisting them 6500 and i feel they just pulled the pin, explosion will follow, just a matter of time. I wouldn't think any thing cam related would cause that rod failure but loss of oil.

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