Moparts

Motor carnage pictures, UGLY!

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 06:14 AM

One of the motors I put together for a customer and friend years ago fail this past weekend at the Oldies but Goodies race at Woodburn,OR. The current owner bought the motor from the original owner several years ago and had me change the cylinders heads, intake and cam two winters ago. I took off a set of wore out Mopar Stage IV cast iron heads and put on set of ported Indy 440-3 heads, that pick his car up around 1.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile. the motor is in a 1965 Belevedere 1, the car ran in the mid tens with this motor, 426 Street wedge with a 4.250 stroke crank,496 C.I., Comp Cams custom ground solid roller cam and a 1050 CFM Dominator. He ended up in the final round on Sunday in his class and redlighted, the motor let go in high gear before the finish line Evidently he had a rod bearing spin and didn't realize it so he kept his foot in it, it might have even spun in the semi finals, I'm not exactly sure when it happened due to the excessive damages once both rod bolts broke. It has a set of Eagle H beam rods in it, it FUBAR them two rods, the block and crankshaft I don't know how to attach two pictures to this post so I'll attach one to this post and the other one on my reply to the next post

Attached picture 8188899-SANY0239.JPG
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 06:15 AM

Picture # 2

Attached picture 8188900-SANY0240.JPG
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 06:19 AM

That is a mess.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 06:20 AM

A little JB Weld and a new rod... all better
Posted By: tex013

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 08:01 AM

ouch.


Tex
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 09:30 AM

Bummer!
Posted By: tubtar

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 10:24 AM

That had to make a gut wrenching sound.
I'm not certain Mike.........but I don't think that's gonna buff out.
Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 12:21 PM

Looks broke to me....
Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 02:19 PM

Most times they break the #5 rod.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 02:39 PM

BROKE.... At least he had a few years of fun with it.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 03:05 PM

That's kinda why I have to laugh when I read these "what can I do to make my 600 HP stock block engine last"? I don't care what kind of band-aids you install on your engine, whether its concrete or a girdle if you race on a weekly bracket type program its not is it, but when is it going to break. 600 plus HP stock block engines break. Sooner or later. I know are the guys that put 25-50 runs a year are going to chirp in here but I'm talking 600 plus HP engines that see 150 plus runs a year, 2-3 years.
Posted By: cudadon

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 03:41 PM

Quote:

That had to make a gut wrenching sound.
I'm not certain Mike.........but I don't think that's gonna buff out.



I had one with eagle rods break. It looked just like that.

tubtar it may have made a bang and then silence. With open headers I coudn't hear much.
But it quit rotating immediately.

Right after that is when I started having RBRE build my engines. Haven't had a problem since.
That was about 14 years ago.
Don

Attached picture 8189118-451ondyno.JPG
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 05:13 PM

awww crap Cab ,hate to see this kind of breakage.
Posted By: CTD5.9

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 05:24 PM

Quote:

That's kinda why I have to laugh when I read these "what can I do to make my 600 HP stock block engine last"? I don't care what kind of band-aids you install on your engine, whether its concrete or a girdle if you race on a weekly bracket type program its not is it, but when is it going to break. 600 plus HP stock block engines break. Sooner or later. I know are the guys that put 25-50 runs a year are going to chirp in here but I'm talking 600 plus HP engines that see 150 plus runs a year, 2-3 years.



I am kind of interested, what's wrong with stock blocks that cause rod bearings to spin, break rods and then throw them through the side? crappy oiling?

I understand the cracked webbing, cap walk and broke cranks etc but don't know why the block is to blame for this one.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 05:48 PM

I have a few blocks on the shelf if he is looking for another one.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 05:59 PM

Sorry to see this Cab but as you told me years ago, if you race long enuff you will eventually break something and I guess that`s why my junk lives. Do you still have that 230-400 block I sold ya?
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 06:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

That's kinda why I have to laugh when I read these "what can I do to make my 600 HP stock block engine last"? I don't care what kind of band-aids you install on your engine, whether its concrete or a girdle if you race on a weekly bracket type program its not is it, but when is it going to break. 600 plus HP stock block engines break. Sooner or later. I know are the guys that put 25-50 runs a year are going to chirp in here but I'm talking 600 plus HP engines that see 150 plus runs a year, 2-3 years.



I am kind of interested, what's wrong with stock blocks that cause rod bearings to spin, break rods and then throw them through the side? crappy oiling?

I understand the cracked webbing, cap walk and broke cranks etc but don't know why the block is to blame for this one.

When the main web cracks, the crank is no longer supported and is more or less free to "flop" around in there. Usually one of two things happens. It breaks the crank or grabs a bearing.........neither of which is a good thing.

Put enough runs on a high HP stock block motor and this WILL happen to you. Not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

Monte
Posted By: WadeMetzinger

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 07:05 PM

Can you offset grind the crank to 4 3/8 or 4 1/2 and move to Chevy 2.2 journal and reuse the crank?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 08:21 PM

Quote:

Can you offset grind the crank to 4 3/8 or 4 1/2 and move to Chevy 2.2 journal and reuse the crank?

That is a possibility, depending on how bad the crank is hurt. It is a older Crower top fuel crank so maybe it is saveable I did find three cylinders that have small holes in the bottom from debris That block is toast as far as I'm concenred I'm working him up a quote for a new short block using a 4.5 bore World block with new crank, roods and pistons. He is in a hurry so time will be the deciding factor on who's part I use on this build, it will be a pump gas motor around 540 + C.I. so he can still stay on the tens It ran mid to low tens before at 496 C.I.(I think that is hte number with 4.25 stroke, 4.310 bore). I'm still baffled about what failed first or what caused the #1 rod bearing to spin OH,WELL I'm still learning, hopefully
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 09:42 PM

The crank should clean up at 2.200 unless it is cracked. That will allow the guy to run some higher quality Chevy rods. Pay the money to get some good stuff.
Posted By: lorenr

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 09:43 PM

That internal oil pickup looks suspect. Did the rod bearing look like it wasn't getting oil?

I would suspect that a heavy car like that with a 500 cu in engine would need a pretty good external oiling system.

Loren

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 10:21 PM

I wouldn't even consider a crank thats been though that even if it did CLean up
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 10:27 PM

Quote:

That internal oil pickup looks suspect. Did the rod bearing look like it wasn't getting oil?

I would suspect that a heavy car like that with a 500 cu in engine would need a pretty good external oiling system.

Loren



The stock 3/8 internal pickup was hit by one of the rod pieces, it is really bent up in the pictures I had positioned it on the bottom of the oil pan with 1/8 inch clearances between the back edge of the pickup and the front edge of the pickup touching the bottom of the oil pan I run loose bearing clearances, .003+ on the rods and mains, I only use main bearings with full grooves All the other rod and main bearings look really good for a motor that started off in 1998 as a pump gas motor As I stated earlier, this failure still has me puzzled It has been over revved more than once looking at the back sides of the roller cam lobes now I'm thinking a piece of dirt or debris got washed in between the #1 rod bearing and crankshaft and that ended up seizing the bearing to the crankshaft To much damage now to tell, I can only guess AndyF, are you working on any interesting engine projects now?
Posted By: onig

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/27/14 11:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It has been over revved more than once looking at the back sides of the roller cam lobes now



That is an interesting statement.
What exactly are you looking for to tell that is was over-revved. Do the rollers "hit" the back side of the cam instead of rolling over them because it is spinning too fast?
I would like to see a pic of these lobes that you mentioned to understand your thinking and what to look for. I want to learn something here.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 12:03 AM

When the lifter goes over the nose of the cam it goes airborne so to speak and when it lands, it beats the crap out of the heel of the cam and the roller too. Think beat cam with hammer and chisel and imagine the damage.

Kevin
Posted By: onig

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 01:27 AM

That's what I was thinking happens, but wanted to confirm. Good to know, thanks.
Posted By: nss guy

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 02:38 AM

pretty common knowledge 300+ 1/4 miles runs on a motor makein 600+ hp the main cap webbing starts to crack. Time to swap out the block before a catastophic failure. It's like changing the oil or any other kind of maintenance
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 03:03 AM

Sounds like a lot of years on a race short block without checking/replacing at least the bearings.

I hate to hear of big failures when preventative maintenance might have avoided it.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 04:49 AM

Quote:

Sounds like a lot of years on a race short block without checking/replacing at least the bearings.

I hate to hear of big failures when preventative maintenance might have avoided it.

This one was built to be a pump gas motor that might make 8 to 10 passes in the 1/4 in its life to find out what the car would run at LACR back in the 1990s, mainly a trailer queen that was taken to car shows. Plans and things change, you wouldn't beleive the whole story behind this rascal It bit me on the butt twice , I didn't want to use that block to start with due to two external cracks and one internal casting flaw in the cooling passages at the bottom of #6 cylinder that leak coolant into the motor from day one OH WELL some lessons are hard to learn and enforce I now insist that it is my way in my shop or I don't take the job on Sometimes it does not pay to be nice to the customer and go out of your way to make them happy, especially when it ends up making both of you very unhappy
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 05:06 AM

Glycol is death on bearings.

8v92 Detroits were famous for losing their liner seals and dumping coolant in the base. The low coolant light usually came on at the same time it spun all the crank bearings.

Kevin
Posted By: TonyS451

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 05:02 PM

ouch, but sounds like it did its job for a long time. They all die eventually...
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 06:12 PM

Quote:


What exactly are you looking for to tell that is was over-revved. Do the rollers "hit" the back side of the cam instead of rolling over them because it is spinning too fast?
I would like to see a pic of these lobes that you mentioned to understand your thinking and what to look for. I want to learn something here.

Here you go , the back side of the lobes show the lifter hitting them (sliding down instead of rolling over the nose like they should) marking them up differentily than the front side The lobe on the far right hand side in this pictures is on the opening side so , hopefully, you can see both sides of a lobe on this cam

Attached picture 8190183-SANY0242.JPG
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 06:13 PM

Hopefully this picture will show the opening lobe better

Attached picture 8190184-SANY0243.JPG
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 06:16 PM

Quote:

Glycol is death on bearings.

8v92 Detroits were famous for losing their liner seals and dumping coolant in the base. The low coolant light usually came on at the same time it spun all the crank bearings.

Kevin

All the block flaws where fixed before I built it the first time, no Glycol in these bearings
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 06:27 PM

Interesting subject on "over-revving". This would surely be a symptom to look no matter the cam type, right?
A Flat tappet would show the same damage to the cam if repeatedly over revved, correct?
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/28/14 06:28 PM

RPM can play a pretty big part in how long a RB can last too. My old RB sweet spot was a 5600-5800 shift point and 6200 trap speed and was 9.93/136 capable at sea level.
Posted By: onig

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/29/14 02:41 AM

Cab, thanks for the pics. Never seen that before, but it all makes sense.
How deep is the pounding, looks/guessing around a 1/16"?
Could a similar situation show on the lobes if the springs were too weak also?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/29/14 05:02 AM

Many things can cause the lifter to float , weak valve springs is one of them To many RPMs is another, especially in the burn out box The cam lobe design is a major factor in that also I just checked two of the valve springs on that motor, one of them has lost 20 lbs on the seat and more at max lift The customer did over rev the motor at the MATS race, he forgot to shift it into high gear on one run Lots of gremlins out there, many of them are man made As far as how deep on the grooves on those lobes I didn't measure or feel them, it has damages to one lobe from the flying motor pieces so I will send it in for repairs and ask them to regrind all the lobes so we can start fresh with a unblemished cam.
Posted By: Bigbeep

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/29/14 08:37 PM

Could a similar situation show on the lobes if the springs were too weak also?



My thought exactly! What is the recommended rpm range on the cam and where was it being operated at. My have been too light on the spring pressure if it really sees a lot of passes. Beep
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/29/14 10:52 PM

Not knocking what they want you to build because some guys can destroy an anvil. But seeing that pickup tube would scare me. IMO i want a duel line system for anything over 5000 rpm. I see cars with stock or deep pans twisting them 6500 and i feel they just pulled the pin, explosion will follow, just a matter of time. I wouldn't think any thing cam related would cause that rod failure but loss of oil.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/29/14 11:51 PM

Quote:

Not knocking what they want you to build because some guys can destroy an anvil. But seeing that pickup tube would scare me. IMO i want a duel line system for anything over 5000 rpm. I see cars with stock or deep pans twisting them 6500 and i feel they just pulled the pin, explosion will follow, just a matter of time. I wouldn't think any thing cam related would cause that rod failure but loss of oil.



Well maybe I`m one of the lucky ones cos I`ve been beating the snot out of my 3.900 stroke 400(470) for 13+ years running an 8 qt. pan w/6-7 quarts and the 1/2" pickup deal. Bearings looked good at each freshen up and it`s still goin strong. That dual line deal`s a pain when a car sits for a while at least on one car I helped work on.........would have to prime it after a few weeks.
Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 12:03 AM

Cab_Burge: I've done worse... :^)

Built a blown alcohol HEMI (1800 HP) that ran lean and blew the rod and piston through the cylinder wall. Pictures don't do it justice.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 03:35 AM

Quote:

Cab_Burge: I've done worse... :^)

Built a blown alcohol HEMI (1800 HP) that ran lean and blew the rod and piston through the cylinder wall. Pictures don't do it justice.

I hear you, I learned a long time ago if you race long enough you will break parts, especially if your pushing them hard on a budget I've been sideways a couple of times at speed due to broken parts thinking "AW SHEET, here goes the paint God was good to me both times, no scratches, bumps, bruises or body damages to the car
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 04:28 PM

Quote:

To many RPMs is another, especially in the burn out box



I did that twice with my KOS 499 when I first got it. The first time I didn't have a rev limit pill in the ignition and wasn't paying much attn to the tach - it was my first burnout in the car and I wasn't expecting the thing to rev that fast. I didn't know anything happened except the guy working the water box jumped back excitedly. Next time I asked him what was up and he said it souunded like it would blow up at those RPMs. I watched the next time, still no race limit pill, and saw 93oo before I knew it.

May have hurt the motor cause when starting the car to cross the stripe to enter the lanes it fired then made a goofy sound and quit. It would crank over but not fire. Started pulling the motor last weekend (man they have that thing shoehorned in with those huge headers) and so far have not seen any damage. Spark plugs all looked good. Oil not glimmering with flakes.

Maybe the intermediate shaft broke and the dist wasn't turning.

The 540 is going in while we take a look at the 499.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 06:28 PM

Is the timing chain still in one piece? Is the cam turning when spinning the motor over?
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 06:40 PM

The Jesel belt seems to be intact. I have only pulled the pass side rocker cover and saw no carnage there. Since it will turn over OK and the spark plugs all came out clean I think the valves are not involved. I will dig in a little further tonight.

I didn't trust the motor anyways. Now at least I will know what is in it. If the 540 runs good the KB / B1 PSO 499 may be for sale after it gets looked at inside to evaluate the condition.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Motor carnage pictures, UGLY! - 06/30/14 08:05 PM

Quote:

The Jesel belt seems to be intact. I have only pulled the pass side rocker cover and saw no carnage there. Since it will turn over OK and the spark plugs all came out clean I think the valves are not involved. I will dig in a little further tonight.

I didn't trust the motor anyways. Now at least I will know what is in it. If the 540 runs good the KB / B1 PSO 499 may be for sale after it gets looked at inside to evaluate the condition.



I don't believe I would have disclosed that bit about 9300...

Kevin
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