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Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? #1567862 01/24/14 03:08 AM 01/24/14 03:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	I'm running some 906 heads that i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I don't have any locating cups on right now, and from the one spring distance i've measured (only need a .030 shim). It doesn't look like i'll have enough clearance to run a locating cup. I got hardened shims (although i'm not sure every spring will need one) Can i run without locating springs Cam is Hyrdraulic flat tappet Advertised Duration 268/276, Lift .494/.513

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567863 01/24/14 04:45 AM 01/24/14 04:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 300 St.Louis ,Mo. 7 72sat enthusiast
72sat enthusiast 7 Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 300 St.Louis ,Mo.	no;cups are use to protect aluminum heads from the steel springs from chewing them up. cast heads can take the beating.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567864 01/24/14 05:57 AM 01/24/14 05:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA	Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1567865 01/24/14 10:41 AM 01/24/14 10:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 492 South Jersey, NJ D DragDart360 mopar
DragDart360 mopar D Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 492 South Jersey, NJ	Quote: Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM I've had this happen 70 Dart Swinger, 2850 lbs SB 408, Bullet roller 264/268 @50 .636 SSDS stage 2 Edelbrock heads, 1 7/8 Headmans, 1050 dominator by Dom, 9.867 @ 133

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567866 01/24/14 11:44 AM 01/24/14 11:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,879 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,879 Ontario, Canada	Quote: i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I think you should post a pic of the seat. When the seat is cut for inner springs they usually only cut it back to the i.d. of the inner spring. Likewise when cutting the guide for viton seals, they usually only cut the guide. The spring locators are all .060" thick. Instead of cutting the seats again you might consider getting retainers or valve locks that will give you .050" more spring height.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Stanton] #1567867 01/24/14 01:33 PM 01/24/14 01:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	If all the seat is cut flush you may want locaters or cups to insure the springs doesn't move and catch the seals especially if the ID is tight.With any iron or aluminium head it is advisable to install at least one thin harden shim to keep the leading edge of the spring coil from digging in to the head surface and creating filings.Soft shims will also get chewed up. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: B G Racing] #1567868 01/24/14 01:36 PM 01/24/14 01:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	What RPM's are we talking here. My cam is only good to 6200 rpm, and i'ts mostly a street car, so i won't be getting up there too often. I'd really not have to modify it too much more. Do you guys really think it will be a problem? Last edited by VoodooCLD; 01/24/14 01:36 PM.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: DragDart360] #1567869 01/24/14 02:08 PM 01/24/14 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,128 sweden S sshemi top fuel
sshemi top fuel S Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,128 sweden	Quote: Quote: Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM I've had this happen Me too. They even jumped out of the pocket on one side. 1.63 pocket for 1.46 spring. The springs got crocked so they went into the trash.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567870 01/24/14 02:16 PM 01/24/14 02:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Quote: What RPM's are we talking here. My cam is only good to 6200 rpm, and i'ts mostly a street car, so i won't be getting up there too often. I'd really not have to modify it too much more. Do you guys really think it will be a problem? What springs are you running ? I did the same thing as you , cut for viton seals and ended up with a flush spring seat. have your springs checked and see what happens to the pressure with .030 less installed height and run the cups without shims.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: JohnRR] #1567871 01/24/14 02:36 PM 01/24/14 02:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Lunati#638-73100-16 Dual Valve Springs OD: 1.450" Inner ID: .730" Seat Load: 125 lbs/in @ 1.850 Open Load: 325 lbs/in @ 1.250 Coil Bind: 1.110" Rate: 333 lbs/in Are the specs for my springs. The spring base is now cut flush (more or less) the base of the valve guide is .645" which is what a lot of shims are sized for, however i haven't found a cup that has that inner diamter. I don't have a spring pressure gauge, and frankly after buying a micrometer gauge, i don't have the money to buy any more tools.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567872 01/24/14 02:45 PM 01/24/14 02:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: I'm running some 906 heads that i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I don't have any locating cups on right now, and from the one spring distance i've measured (only need a .030 shim). It doesn't look like i'll have enough clearance to run a locating cup. I got hardened shims (although i'm not sure every spring will need one) Can i run without locating springs Cam is Hyrdraulic flat tappet Advertised Duration 268/276, Lift .494/.513 You gotta run locaters and add the distance back in with the correct retainers and keepers. Too great of a chance of the springs walking and eating the seals or worse, breaking. Fastest 300

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Crizila] #1567873 01/24/14 02:52 PM 01/24/14 02:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	New question Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring? So far i haven't found anything.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567874 01/24/14 03:22 PM 01/24/14 03:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA	Quote: New question Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring? So far i haven't found anything. I buy and use Comp Cams spring seats and spring cups, two different ways to locate the springs Let us know if you don't find the ones you need, I'll look at the ones I have in stock also to see if any of them will work for your application Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1567875 01/24/14 03:50 PM 01/24/14 03:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Quote: Quote: New question Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring? So far i haven't found anything. I buy and use Comp Cams spring seats and spring cups, two different ways to locate the springs Let us know if you don't find the ones you need, I'll look at the ones I have in stock also to see if any of them will work for your application so far i have looked at comp, crane, and lunati locaters and cups, and still haven't found anything.If my valve guide was .630 i think i'd be in business, but for some reason the machinist cut them to .645. I didn't specify so i guess i can't complain too much.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567876 01/24/14 03:59 PM 01/24/14 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA	You can probally use Comp Cams # 4700-16 spring cups for your springs You could also have your machinest cut the guide O.D. down to .560 to use the #4776-16 spring seats instead of the cups Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1567877 01/24/14 04:24 PM 01/24/14 04:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring. Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567878 01/24/14 05:27 PM 01/24/14 05:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring. Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup. IMO, you still need locator cups on the head side. Fastest 300

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567879 01/24/14 07:15 PM 01/24/14 07:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring. Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup. They will locate the TOP of the spring fine , the BOTTOM , not so much ...

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: JohnRR] #1567880 01/24/14 07:21 PM 01/24/14 07:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: drew72] #1567881 01/24/14 07:29 PM 01/24/14 07:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Quote: How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup. How nice of your to give no advice whatsoever and then come in aggressively stating your opinion. Your input is not needed. Move along now.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: Stanton] #1567882 01/24/14 07:34 PM 01/24/14 07:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Quote: Quote: i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I think you should post a pic of the seat. When the seat is cut for inner springs they usually only cut it back to the i.d. of the inner spring. Likewise when cutting the guide for viton seals, they usually only cut the guide. The spring locators are all .060" thick. Instead of cutting the seats again you might consider getting retainers or valve locks that will give you .050" more spring height. I sure wish he would have only cut the guides down to the inner diameter of the spring. I even brought him a full set of springs locks and seals when i had them cut. Too late now, gotta work with what i've got.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567883 01/24/14 11:12 PM 01/24/14 11:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	Quote: Quote: How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup. How nice of your to give no advice whatsoever and then come in aggressively stating your opinion. Your input is not needed. Move along now. You are only upset because you don't want to hear the truth. I didn't give my opinion because it has already been said. You need to use a locator to keep the bottom of the spring from walking. That is why there is normally a spring pocket. Since yours has been removed, you need a new way of locating the bottom the spring.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: drew72] #1567884 01/25/14 12:17 AM 01/25/14 12:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,879 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,879 Ontario, Canada	Post a pic of the seat - and one with a spring sitting in it.

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567885 01/25/14 01:59 AM 01/25/14 01:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,215 Bend,OR USA	If the inner spring fits tight against the inner step of the retainer and against the outer spring or dampener yourprobally fine with those If the inner spring is loose on either of those two go with a cup or seat Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: VoodooCLD] #1567886 01/25/14 03:35 AM 01/25/14 03:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 197 Nor-Cal L loaderpro member
loaderpro member L Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 197 Nor-Cal	You DO NOT need to use any cup or bottom locator. Anytime they cut a mopar cast head for duel springs you lose the factory locator...I have a set of DC stage IV heads that have had a .750 roller cam with 275 lbs of seat pressure under them for 25 years with zero problems! The only thing that is needed is some sort of hardened shim, which you will probably use anyway to set the spring height. 8010894-pomona.jpg (133 downloads)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: loaderpro] #1567887 01/25/14 12:48 PM 01/25/14 12:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 145 NJ C cb1289 member
cb1289 member C Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 145 NJ	I agree with loaderpro. Not needed with iron. 62 Dodge Dart Wagon 65 Plymouth Satellite

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: cb1289] #1567888 01/25/14 02:21 PM 01/25/14 02:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	You may want to check installed height from the head seat to the retainer locked in place.If you have room for the cup or locater then use it.ie: if you sping suggested installed height is 1.890 and you distance with the retainer installed is 1.950 then use a .060 cup.If not use a single thin harden shim at the seat.Measure your height first to determine if you need to raise the spring or machine it to lower the spring. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: B G Racing] #1567889 01/25/14 02:30 PM 01/25/14 02:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,047 Mooresburg, Tn ' '72CudaRacer top fuel
'72CudaRacer top fuel ' Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,047 Mooresburg, Tn	If this is what you are concidering using, don't. Just use a hardened shim under your springs that fit the OD of the valve guide. I thought that I needed them and it cost me a oil pump and a pump cover. Could have been way worse. Brian 8011188-ValueSpringLocators012.JPG (175 downloads)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: '72CudaRacer] #1567890 01/25/14 02:31 PM 01/25/14 02:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,047 Mooresburg, Tn ' '72CudaRacer top fuel
'72CudaRacer top fuel ' Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,047 Mooresburg, Tn	another picture 8011192-ValueSpringLocators011.JPG (139 downloads)

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? [Re: '72CudaRacer] #1567891 01/25/14 11:20 PM 01/25/14 11:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma V VoodooCLD OP mopar
VoodooCLD OP mopar V Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 460 Oklahoma	Thanks for all the advice guys. I measured one side. 2 of the springs only need .030' shims, and 1 only need a.040" shim. Therefore the cups could cause me to need to get offset locks. The outside edge of the seals fit pretty flush with the guide, so i don't think there's much chance of them getting chewed up. There is only .050" of movement to be be had with the springs. And there is no pockets to jump out of. So i think i'll go ahead and skip the cups and just run shims (so far everyone needed a shim)

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