Moparts

Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads?

Posted By: VoodooCLD

Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 07:08 AM

I'm running some 906 heads that i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I don't have any locating cups on right now, and from the one spring distance i've measured (only need a .030 shim). It doesn't look like i'll have enough clearance to run a locating cup.
I got hardened shims (although i'm not sure every spring will need one)
Can i run without locating springs

Cam is Hyrdraulic flat tappet
Advertised Duration 268/276, Lift .494/.513
Posted By: 72sat

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 08:45 AM

no;cups are use to protect aluminum heads from the steel springs from chewing them up. cast heads can take the beating.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 09:57 AM

Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM
Posted By: DragDart360

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 02:41 PM

Quote:

Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM




I've had this happen
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 03:44 PM

Quote:

i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs.



I think you should post a pic of the seat. When the seat is cut for inner springs they usually only cut it back to the i.d. of the inner spring. Likewise when cutting the guide for viton seals, they usually only cut the guide.

The spring locators are all .060" thick. Instead of cutting the seats again you might consider getting retainers or valve locks that will give you .050" more spring height.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 05:33 PM

If all the seat is cut flush you may want locaters or cups to insure the springs doesn't move and catch the seals especially if the ID is tight.With any iron or aluminium head it is advisable to install at least one thin harden shim to keep the leading edge of the spring coil from digging in to the head surface and creating filings.Soft shims will also get chewed up.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 05:36 PM

What RPM's are we talking here. My cam is only good to 6200 rpm, and i'ts mostly a street car, so i won't be getting up there too often.

I'd really not have to modify it too much more. Do you guys really think it will be a problem?
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 06:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Check the new retainers and springs and see if the retainers will limit the springs(inner and or outers ) from moving around on the heads, if not you should do something to try and limit the springs from moving around on the heads at the upper RPM




I've had this happen



Me too.
They even jumped out of the pocket on one side.
1.63 pocket for 1.46 spring.
The springs got crocked so they went into the trash.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 06:16 PM

Quote:

What RPM's are we talking here. My cam is only good to 6200 rpm, and i'ts mostly a street car, so i won't be getting up there too often.

I'd really not have to modify it too much more. Do you guys really think it will be a problem?



What springs are you running ? I did the same thing as you , cut for viton seals and ended up with a flush spring seat. have your springs checked and see what happens to the pressure with .030 less installed height and run the cups without shims.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 06:36 PM

Lunati#638-73100-16
Dual Valve Springs
OD: 1.450"
Inner ID: .730"
Seat Load: 125 lbs/in @ 1.850
Open Load: 325 lbs/in @ 1.250
Coil Bind: 1.110"
Rate: 333 lbs/in

Are the specs for my springs. The spring base is now cut flush (more or less) the base of the valve guide is .645" which is what a lot of shims are sized for, however i haven't found a cup that has that inner diamter.

I don't have a spring pressure gauge, and frankly after buying a micrometer gauge, i don't have the money to buy any more tools.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 06:45 PM

Quote:

I'm running some 906 heads that i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs. I don't have any locating cups on right now, and from the one spring distance i've measured (only need a .030 shim). It doesn't look like i'll have enough clearance to run a locating cup.
I got hardened shims (although i'm not sure every spring will need one)
Can i run without locating springs

Cam is Hyrdraulic flat tappet
Advertised Duration 268/276, Lift .494/.513

You gotta run locaters and add the distance back in with the correct retainers and keepers. Too great of a chance of the springs walking and eating the seals or worse, breaking.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 06:52 PM

New question

Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring?

So far i haven't found anything.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 07:22 PM

Quote:

New question

Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring?

So far i haven't found anything.

I buy and use Comp Cams spring seats and spring cups, two different ways to locate the springs Let us know if you don't find the ones you need, I'll look at the ones I have in stock also to see if any of them will work for your application
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 07:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

New question

Were can i find cups or locaters for a .645 valve stem diameter, with .730 ID and 1.450" OD spring?

So far i haven't found anything.

I buy and use Comp Cams spring seats and spring cups, two different ways to locate the springs Let us know if you don't find the ones you need, I'll look at the ones I have in stock also to see if any of them will work for your application



so far i have looked at comp, crane, and lunati locaters and cups, and still haven't found anything.If my valve guide was .630 i think i'd be in business, but for some reason the machinist cut them to .645. I didn't specify so i guess i can't complain too much.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 07:59 PM

You can probally use Comp Cams # 4700-16 spring cups for your springs You could also have your machinest cut the guide O.D. down to .560 to use the #4776-16 spring seats instead of the cups
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 08:24 PM

Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring.

Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup.

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 09:27 PM

Quote:

Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring.

Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup. IMO, you still need locator cups on the head side.



Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 11:15 PM

Quote:

Ok a few things. I remeasured my guides, and they are .625. So the .630 should work fine. However i was looking at the my spring retainer, and they have a dual step in them. The smaller step fits in the inner spring, and the larger step fits just inside the outer spring.

Will these do a good enough job of aligning the spring? Or do i also need a locater/cup.





They will locate the TOP of the spring fine , the BOTTOM , not so much ...
Posted By: drew72

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 11:21 PM

How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 11:29 PM

Quote:

How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup.



How nice of your to give no advice whatsoever and then come in aggressively stating your opinion.

Your input is not needed. Move along now.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/24/14 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i had machined to fit viton seals, and had the original locating section cut so i could run dual valve springs.



I think you should post a pic of the seat. When the seat is cut for inner springs they usually only cut it back to the i.d. of the inner spring. Likewise when cutting the guide for viton seals, they usually only cut the guide.

The spring locators are all .060" thick. Instead of cutting the seats again you might consider getting retainers or valve locks that will give you .050" more spring height.



I sure wish he would have only cut the guides down to the inner diameter of the spring. I even brought him a full set of springs locks and seals when i had them cut. Too late now, gotta work with what i've got.
Posted By: drew72

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 03:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How many ways does it need to be said. YES, you SHOULD run a spring seat cup.



How nice of your to give no advice whatsoever and then come in aggressively stating your opinion.

Your input is not needed. Move along now.



You are only upset because you don't want to hear the truth. I didn't give my opinion because it has already been said. You need to use a locator to keep the bottom of the spring from walking. That is why there is normally a spring pocket. Since
yours has been removed, you need a new way of locating the bottom the spring.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 04:17 AM

Post a pic of the seat - and one with a spring sitting in it.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 05:59 AM

If the inner spring fits tight against the inner step of the retainer and against the outer spring or dampener yourprobally fine with those If the inner spring is loose on either of those two go with a cup or seat
Posted By: loaderpro

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 07:35 AM

You DO NOT need to use any cup or bottom locator. Anytime they cut a mopar cast head for duel springs you lose the factory locator...I have a set of DC stage IV heads that have had a .750 roller cam with 275 lbs of seat pressure under them for 25 years with zero problems! The only thing that is needed is some sort of hardened shim, which you will probably use anyway to set the spring height.

Attached picture 8010894-pomona.jpg
Posted By: cb1289

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 04:48 PM

I agree with loaderpro.
Not needed with iron.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 06:21 PM

You may want to check installed height from the head seat to the retainer locked in place.If you have room for the cup or locater then use it.ie: if you sping suggested installed height is 1.890 and you distance with the retainer installed is 1.950 then use a .060 cup.If not use a single thin harden shim at the seat.Measure your height first to determine if you need to raise the spring or machine it to lower the spring.
Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 06:30 PM

If this is what you are concidering using, don't. Just use a hardened shim under your springs that fit the OD of the valve guide. I thought that I needed them and it cost me a oil pump and a pump cover. Could have been way worse.

Brian

Attached picture 8011188-ValueSpringLocators012.JPG
Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/25/14 06:31 PM

another picture

Attached picture 8011192-ValueSpringLocators011.JPG
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Do i need spring locaters on cast iron heads? - 01/26/14 03:20 AM

Thanks for all the advice guys. I measured one side. 2 of the springs only need .030' shims, and 1 only need a.040" shim. Therefore the cups could cause me to need to get offset locks. The outside edge of the seals fit pretty flush with the guide, so i don't think there's much chance of them getting chewed up. There is only .050" of movement to be be had with the springs. And there is no pockets to jump out of. So i think i'll go ahead and skip the cups and just run shims (so far everyone needed a shim)
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