Degree a cam for the 1st time. What a PITA. * UPDATE*
#1473558
07/24/13 10:50 PM
07/24/13 10:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I've built several engines over the years, but soon I'll do what I have yet to do : Degree in a camshaft. The 440/493 in the Charger has had detonation problems for years. I've determined that the 185-192 PSI cranking numbers are too high for pump 91 gasoline. I have had to limit ignition timing to 30-31 degrees and still had to feather-foot it in hot weather to avoid the knock. Upon the guidance and advice from some helpful members here and other web forums, it was made clear that my 10.7 compression ratio and the 292/509 MP cam are a mismatch. I'd either need to lower the compression or change to a different cam. If I changed to dished pistons, the cylinder pressure and cranking PSIs would come down. If I kept the pistons but instead changed the cam to a more aggressive stick with a later intake closing, the cylinder pressure and cranking PSIs would come down. The difference between the two? Changing the cam will unleash much more power. Guess which way I decided to go??? A member of another site forum suggested the cam. It is a Lunati solid flat tappet and it is much more aggressive compared to the MP 509. Check out these specs:
Last edited by Frankenduster; 08/23/13 05:11 PM.
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: BSB67]
#1473563
07/24/13 11:07 PM
07/24/13 11:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
You keep saying "more aggressive", but I think you mean larger, as that is not really an aggressive cam. Sounds like it might be perfect for you, and your power should go up. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
I guess it is all relative. The '509 has about 248 degrees of duration @ .050. This cam steps it up to 261/271 IN/EX. The lift jumps to .558/.578 after deducting the lash. ( Considering the 1.6 ratio rocker arms)
The kit I bought has a 9 " wheel, a piston stop, two light checking springs.....
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1473570
07/24/13 11:39 PM
07/24/13 11:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
How do you check piston to valve clearance with the heads on the car? I have those checking springs that came with the degree wheel kit. Do I install them, then check how much more they can move at TDC?
remove the current valve springs and use the checking springs, then when the #1 piston is coming up to TDC (I start checking 15 to 20 degrees before top dead center on both valves and until it stops getting closer on the intake valves) put the dial indicator on the valve retainer aligned with the valve stem as close to perfect alignment as you can get it when both valves are closed(set the lash first) and then see how much lift you have when it starts getting close to max valve openimg and check by pushing the valves down GENTLY when the piston is near TDC until the valve touches the piston, see how much clearance you have on the dial indicator I like to see .080 on the intakes and exhaust on a 4 speed car with good valve springs, a little closer is usually okay on a automatic trans. race car, .060 on the intakes and .080 on the exhaust sides Some cam grinders like to see .120 and some like .080 I've accidently ran .030 on the intakes and .055 on the exhaust on my old M.W. stocker a long time ago with no damages Long story
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1473573
07/25/13 11:04 AM
07/25/13 11:04 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163 CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
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If you come up less than 2 degrees of where it should be, leave it, as 1 degree isn't enough to warrant moving it for a minimal difference (maybe on a SuperStock car or something similar but not in your case). I like to err on the advanced side as far as error goes, i.e. the cam in my engine had a recommended centerline of 106, I installed it straight up and measured it with a 104.5 installed centerline. This is almost perfect, since the timing chain will stretch a bit and probably put me at 105-106 in a few thousand miles. From what I've seen chains stretch pretty fast initially (they're really tight when installed but it doesn't last long).
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1473575
07/25/13 01:47 PM
07/25/13 01:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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What kind of heads?? You sure the fire wire on the fel pro gaskets is not hanging in the combustion chamber and glowing red hot?? a common problem. Lean jetting and too low a power valve number can cause light throttle ping too!
Last edited by Dodgem; 07/25/13 01:47 PM.
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: Dodgem]
#1473576
07/25/13 02:09 PM
07/25/13 02:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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You know there is a way to degree a camshaft that uses feeler gauges rather than a bunch of math and such, Feb 97 Mopar Action has it in there I believe.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time.
[Re: Supercuda]
#1473577
07/25/13 02:58 PM
07/25/13 02:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
You know there is a way to degree a camshaft that uses feeler gauges rather than a bunch of math and such, Feb 97 Mopar Action has it in there I believe.
A guy on FBBO told me about that trick. It involved using 2 deep well sockets sitting in place of the lifters. You center the cam between the closing ramp of the exhaust and the opening ramp of the intake while at TDC of the exhaust stroke. The OD of the deep well sockets needs to be really close to the size of the .904 Mopar lifter. THERE lies the problem. 5/8" and 16 mm sockets measure .85. the 11/16" and 17 mm measure .94/.95, so that is out. I don't know if the lip on these solid lifters sits above the lifter boss. If so, I could just use them as I would ise the taller deep sockets. ********************************************************************* Regarding the detonation: The reason that I went with the bigger cam isn't just because of the higher lift and duration numbers. It is also because of the later point when the intake valve closes. Because the intake valve hangs open longer, this means that less pressure is built for each compression cycle. This will reduce the cranking PSI and the Dynamic compression while allowing the engine to run on 91 octane with more spark advance.
********************************************************************** When I chose the '509 cam for this engine, I thought I was making the right move. At that time, Mopar performance offered a crate 440/500 that used the same cam. Their engine was built with 9.0 compression. I thought I'd have an edge on power since my engine was going to have almost 2 point more squeeze. I absolutely had no clue of the close relationship of compression and camshafts! My ignorance led to an engine that sounds great and runs okay until I tried to mash it to the floor. Yeah, I've ran it on Sunoco 110. the knock did go away, but I wanted to run the car on pump gas. This was/is because I like to drive the car on road trips. I didn't want to resort to questionable octane boosters either. On some of this stuff, I am only relaying what I have read and heard. The well chosen combination of compression and camshafts is how some engines can make ungodly power while running pump premium. I am hoping to be that guy.
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