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Degree a cam for the 1st time. What a PITA. * UPDATE* #1473558
07/24/13 10:50 PM
07/24/13 10:50 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I've built several engines over the years, but soon I'll do what I have yet to do : Degree in a camshaft.
The 440/493 in the Charger has had detonation problems for years. I've determined that the 185-192 PSI cranking numbers are too high for pump 91 gasoline. I have had to limit ignition timing to 30-31 degrees and still had to feather-foot it in hot weather to avoid the knock.
Upon the guidance and advice from some helpful members here and other web forums, it was made clear that my 10.7 compression ratio and the 292/509 MP cam are a mismatch. I'd either need to lower the compression or change to a different cam. If I changed to dished pistons, the cylinder pressure and cranking PSIs would come down. If I kept the pistons but instead changed the cam to a more aggressive stick with a later intake closing, the cylinder pressure and cranking PSIs would come down. The difference between the two?
Changing the cam will unleash much more power. Guess which way I decided to go???
A member of another site forum suggested the cam. It is a Lunati solid flat tappet and it is much more aggressive compared to the MP 509. Check out these specs:

7789042-DSCN1724.JPG (195 downloads)
Last edited by Frankenduster; 08/23/13 05:11 PM.
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473559
07/24/13 10:52 PM
07/24/13 10:52 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I decided to go with the Lunati EDM type lifters. Man, these things look like an hourglass!

7789047-DSCN1719.JPG (229 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473560
07/24/13 10:59 PM
07/24/13 10:59 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I'm just learning about some of this...
The wide band in the center of the lifter will allow oil flowing through the gallery to build. The hole shown in the scribed line shows where the oil enters the body of the lifter. From there, it runs to the center of the bottom face of the lifter.

7789069-DSCN1723.JPG (123 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473561
07/24/13 11:00 PM
07/24/13 11:00 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I went with a one bolt cam.

7789072-DSCN1725.JPG (202 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473562
07/24/13 11:02 PM
07/24/13 11:02 PM
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Prospect, PA
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You keep saying "more aggressive", but I think you mean larger, as that is not really an aggressive cam. Sounds like it might be perfect for you, and your power should go up. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: BSB67] #1473563
07/24/13 11:07 PM
07/24/13 11:07 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

You keep saying "more aggressive", but I think you mean larger, as that is not really an aggressive cam. Sounds like it might be perfect for you, and your power should go up. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.




I guess it is all relative. The '509 has about 248 degrees of duration @ .050. This cam steps it up to 261/271 IN/EX. The lift jumps to .558/.578 after deducting the lash. ( Considering the 1.6 ratio rocker arms)

The kit I bought has a 9 " wheel, a piston stop, two light checking springs.....

7789099-DSCN1735.JPG (142 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473564
07/24/13 11:08 PM
07/24/13 11:08 PM
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Granite Bay CA
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Also a dial indicator and attachments, plus a pointer.

7789102-DSCN1737.JPG (196 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473565
07/24/13 11:13 PM
07/24/13 11:13 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The specs seem pretty rowdy to me, but keep in mind the 292/509 is the biggest cam I've ever ran before.

7789115-DSCN1732.JPG (185 downloads)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473566
07/24/13 11:17 PM
07/24/13 11:17 PM
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Prospect, PA
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Aggressive is used to describe the rate of lift, from seat to 0.050", and to .200".

The cam you got will lower your cylinder pressure, increase power, and be easy on parts. It'll have a lot of rumpity-rump.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473567
07/24/13 11:23 PM
07/24/13 11:23 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The degree kit came with instructions. I've read about the process before and looked at some videos on Youtube. I actually did find 2 guys here in town that could bail me out if/when I run into a snag.
The main issue I have is WHAT DO I DO if the cam comes in with an error? The timing set I have is an Edelbrock #7804. It has 3 keyways: 4* ADV, Zero, 4* RET. The cam card shows it has 2 degrees of advance ground in on a 108 centerline. Does this mean it should be set to 106?
IF I determine that it is off by 4 degrees, I could easily switch the crank gear to advance or retard. What if it is 2-3 degrees off? The one bolt cam style has a dowel that fits into a hole in the cam gear. To get the additional offset, am I supposed to oval out the hole in the cam sprocket and use a wedge? Sorry to be such a pest on this. I have asked that question several times and if anyone had answered it, I must have missed it.
I hope to start in on the engine on Friday.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473568
07/24/13 11:24 PM
07/24/13 11:24 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Check the cam lift and duration on the lifters and then, once you get it where it says on the card, check the lobe seperation angles and cam timing for advance on the retainers with the lash set as recommended for cold checking Check and time the intake lobe first, once you get it where you want it(106 degrees after top dead center max lift on the intake(+ 1 or minus 1 degree) then check the exhaust side If that cam is ground on a 108 lobe seperation angle and they want the intake lobe set at 106 ATDC then the exhaust lobe should be in at 110 BTDC I like to check the lobes in at least two (I do three ) locations, .050 before max lift and again at .100 and I do .200 before max lift also Don't forget to check the valve to piston clearances(both valves) once you get the cam located where it is going to stay at Good luck, the first time is always the hardest, like many other things we learn to do in life


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Cab_Burge] #1473569
07/24/13 11:27 PM
07/24/13 11:27 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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How do you check piston to valve clearance with the heads on the car?
I have those checking springs that came with the degree wheel kit. Do I install them, then check how much more they can move at TDC?

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473570
07/24/13 11:39 PM
07/24/13 11:39 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

How do you check piston to valve clearance with the heads on the car?
I have those checking springs that came with the degree wheel kit. Do I install them, then check how much more they can move at TDC?


remove the current valve springs and use the checking springs, then when the #1 piston is coming up to TDC (I start checking 15 to 20 degrees before top dead center on both valves and until it stops getting closer on the intake valves) put the dial indicator on the valve retainer aligned with the valve stem as close to perfect alignment as you can get it when both valves are closed(set the lash first) and then see how much lift you have when it starts getting close to max valve openimg and check by pushing the valves down GENTLY when the piston is near TDC until the valve touches the piston, see how much clearance you have on the dial indicator I like to see .080 on the intakes and exhaust on a 4 speed car with good valve springs, a little closer is usually okay on a automatic trans. race car, .060 on the intakes and .080 on the exhaust sides Some cam grinders like to see .120 and some like .080 I've accidently ran .030 on the intakes and .055 on the exhaust on my old M.W. stocker a long time ago with no damages Long story


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: BSB67] #1473571
07/25/13 12:09 AM
07/25/13 12:09 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

Aggressive is used to describe the rate of lift, from seat to 0.050", and to .200".






Okay, I wasn't aware of that. I thought bigger/more lift& duration meant aggressive. Your description makes more sense though. Thanks. I'm always willing to learn.

********************************************************************
Thanks to you too, Cab. Your method sounds like the same as I was thinking. The specs are a big help too.

7789217-DSCN1716.JPG (74 downloads)
Last edited by Frankenduster; 07/25/13 12:12 AM.
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473572
07/25/13 10:53 AM
07/25/13 10:53 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:

The main issue I have is WHAT DO I DO if the cam comes in with an error? What if it is 2-3 degrees off? The one bolt cam style has a dowel that fits into a hole in the cam gear. To get the additional offset, am I supposed to oval out the hole in the cam sprocket and use a wedge? Sorry to be such a pest on this.


Not being a pest at all as that's what we're here for is to help each other/solve problems. You would drill out the hole the dowel fits into to a larger OD then get the cheap bushing kit for this which has a hole drilled in each one but the hole is offset so you turn it to adv or ret 1 or 2 or 3 & so on degrees. A pic on mancini or similar site will let you grasp it better than a written descrip. OT I'm assuming that you are set on the octane you'll use. If that's a measured SCR it is real high (for your octane). What about opening up the chambers (unshrouding the valves on the ends works well for more flow also) or deependng the valve notches or thicker head gaskets if you have no quench or a combination of one or more of the above or maybe even a piston change which may very well require rebalancing. Just me & I may be way off here but the 509 is an old school wild cam & I cant see that going more wild with a cam will get the the DCR down to where you can run the octane you desire. Just me I'd feed this monster the octane it wants (& needs) & put the exact cam in there you want for your driving style rather than having to compromise your driveability with a wilder cam to run the inadequate octane you want & I dont think ANY cam is going to lower the DCR enough OR bite the bullet & do it right & lower the SCR & put the corect cam in there to suit your driving. You'll be happier in the long run. Holler how it turns out


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: RapidRobert] #1473573
07/25/13 11:04 AM
07/25/13 11:04 AM
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If you come up less than 2 degrees of where it should be, leave it, as 1 degree isn't enough to warrant moving it for a minimal difference (maybe on a SuperStock car or something similar but not in your case). I like to err on the advanced side as far as error goes, i.e. the cam in my engine had a recommended centerline of 106, I installed it straight up and measured it with a 104.5 installed centerline. This is almost perfect, since the timing chain will stretch a bit and probably put me at 105-106 in a few thousand miles. From what I've seen chains stretch pretty fast initially (they're really tight when installed but it doesn't last long).


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473574
07/25/13 01:03 PM
07/25/13 01:03 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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To do it right, you need a mounting hub. There's many ways to do it, a hub designed for the job is best. Because if you just bolt it to the crank you could damage/wear out the degree wheel. Also it's really hard to loosen the bolt to adjust the wheel without moving the crank if it's bolted to the crank, almost impossible. And when it comes time to reverse the crank the bolt can come loose making you start over. You need a hub...

Several different types.


Then every motor is different, I use this plate almost 100% of the time. It get bolted somewhere and your indicator mount get's stuck to it. 100% mandatory with a aluminum motor or heads.


Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473575
07/25/13 01:47 PM
07/25/13 01:47 PM
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What kind of heads?? You sure the fire wire on the fel pro gaskets is not hanging in the combustion chamber and glowing red hot?? a common problem.

Lean jetting and too low a power valve number can cause light throttle ping too!

Last edited by Dodgem; 07/25/13 01:47 PM.
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Dodgem] #1473576
07/25/13 02:09 PM
07/25/13 02:09 PM
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You know there is a way to degree a camshaft that uses feeler gauges rather than a bunch of math and such, Feb 97 Mopar Action has it in there I believe.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Supercuda] #1473577
07/25/13 02:58 PM
07/25/13 02:58 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

You know there is a way to degree a camshaft that uses feeler gauges rather than a bunch of math and such, Feb 97 Mopar Action has it in there I believe.




A guy on FBBO told me about that trick. It involved using 2 deep well sockets sitting in place of the lifters. You center the cam between the closing ramp of the exhaust and the opening ramp of the intake while at TDC of the exhaust stroke. The OD of the deep well sockets needs to be really close to the size of the .904 Mopar lifter. THERE lies the problem. 5/8" and 16 mm sockets measure .85. the 11/16" and 17 mm measure .94/.95, so that is out. I don't know if the lip on these solid lifters sits above the lifter boss. If so, I could just use them as I would ise the taller deep sockets.
*********************************************************************
Regarding the detonation:
The reason that I went with the bigger cam isn't just because of the higher lift and duration numbers. It is also because of the later point when the intake valve closes. Because the intake valve hangs open longer, this means that less pressure is built for each compression cycle. This will reduce the cranking PSI and the Dynamic compression while allowing the engine to run on 91 octane with more spark advance.

**********************************************************************
When I chose the '509 cam for this engine, I thought I was making the right move. At that time, Mopar performance offered a crate 440/500 that used the same cam. Their engine was built with 9.0 compression. I thought I'd have an edge on power since my engine was going to have almost 2 point more squeeze. I absolutely had no clue of the close relationship of compression and camshafts! My ignorance led to an engine that sounds great and runs okay until I tried to mash it to the floor. Yeah, I've ran it on Sunoco 110. the knock did go away, but I wanted to run the car on pump gas. This was/is because I like to drive the car on road trips. I didn't want to resort to questionable octane boosters either.
On some of this stuff, I am only relaying what I have read and heard. The well chosen combination of compression and camshafts is how some engines can make ungodly power while running pump premium. I am hoping to be that guy.

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