Degree a cam for the 1st time. What a PITA. * UPDATE*

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You keep saying "more aggressive", but I think you mean larger, as that is not really an aggressive cam. Sounds like it might be perfect for you, and your power should go up. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

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I guess it is all relative. The '509 has about 248 degrees of duration @ .050. This cam steps it up to 261/271 IN/EX. The lift jumps to .558/.578 after deducting the lash. ( Considering the 1.6 ratio rocker arms)

The kit I bought has a 9 " wheel, a piston stop, two light checking springs.....

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How do you check piston to valve clearance with the heads on the car?
I have those checking springs that came with the degree wheel kit. Do I install them, then check how much more they can move at TDC?

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remove the current valve springs and use the checking springs, then when the #1 piston is coming up to TDC (I start checking 15 to 20 degrees before top dead center on both valves and until it stops getting closer on the intake valves) put the dial indicator on the valve retainer aligned with the valve stem as close to perfect alignment as you can get it when both valves are closed(set the lash first) and then see how much lift you have when it starts getting close to max valve openimg and check by pushing the valves down GENTLY when the piston is near TDC until the valve touches the piston, see how much clearance you have on the dial indicator I like to see .080 on the intakes and exhaust on a 4 speed car with good valve springs, a little closer is usually okay on a automatic trans. race car, .060 on the intakes and .080 on the exhaust sides Some cam grinders like to see .120 and some like .080 I've accidently ran .030 on the intakes and .055 on the exhaust on my old M.W. stocker a long time ago with no damages Long story

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Aggressive is used to describe the rate of lift, from seat to 0.050", and to .200".

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Okay, I wasn't aware of that. I thought bigger/more lift& duration meant aggressive. Your description makes more sense though. Thanks. I'm always willing to learn.

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Thanks to you too, Cab. Your method sounds like the same as I was thinking. The specs are a big help too.

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The main issue I have is WHAT DO I DO if the cam comes in with an error? What if it is 2-3 degrees off? The one bolt cam style has a dowel that fits into a hole in the cam gear. To get the additional offset, am I supposed to oval out the hole in the cam sprocket and use a wedge? Sorry to be such a pest on this.

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You know there is a way to degree a camshaft that uses feeler gauges rather than a bunch of math and such, Feb 97 Mopar Action has it in there I believe.

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A guy on FBBO told me about that trick. It involved using 2 deep well sockets sitting in place of the lifters. You center the cam between the closing ramp of the exhaust and the opening ramp of the intake while at TDC of the exhaust stroke. The OD of the deep well sockets needs to be really close to the size of the .904 Mopar lifter. THERE lies the problem. 5/8" and 16 mm sockets measure .85. the 11/16" and 17 mm measure .94/.95, so that is out. I don't know if the lip on these solid lifters sits above the lifter boss. If so, I could just use them as I would ise the taller deep sockets.
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Regarding the detonation:
The reason that I went with the bigger cam isn't just because of the higher lift and duration numbers. It is also because of the later point when the intake valve closes. Because the intake valve hangs open longer, this means that less pressure is built for each compression cycle. This will reduce the cranking PSI and the Dynamic compression while allowing the engine to run on 91 octane with more spark advance.

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When I chose the '509 cam for this engine, I thought I was making the right move. At that time, Mopar performance offered a crate 440/500 that used the same cam. Their engine was built with 9.0 compression. I thought I'd have an edge on power since my engine was going to have almost 2 point more squeeze. I absolutely had no clue of the close relationship of compression and camshafts! My ignorance led to an engine that sounds great and runs okay until I tried to mash it to the floor. Yeah, I've ran it on Sunoco 110. the knock did go away, but I wanted to run the car on pump gas. This was/is because I like to drive the car on road trips. I didn't want to resort to questionable octane boosters either.
On some of this stuff, I am only relaying what I have read and heard. The well chosen combination of compression and camshafts is how some engines can make ungodly power while running pump premium. I am hoping to be that guy.

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What kind of heads?? You sure the fire wire on the fel pro gaskets is not hanging in the combustion chamber and glowing red hot?? a common problem.

Lean jetting and too low a power valve number can cause light throttle ping too!

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I was at Sears yesterday. The Craftsman sockets must have been redesigned since the article came out. The ones I measured were .95 in diameter. I was hoping to try that method.

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Then use two old lifters glued together to be tall enough.

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Exactly what I was thinking

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I may have to adjust the idle speed above the 600 rpms in gear! Is it fair to guess that a bigger cam will need a higher numbered Power Valve?

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I look at the rpm change from nuetral to in gear, 150 to 200 RPM is good 1000 RPM in nuetral, 800 to 900 in gear As far as the numbers on the power valves, bigger cams idling at lower RPM make less manifold vacume so you should be good with the 3.5 if it has 7.0 or higher vacume inches idling in gear You wouldn't want to try a 6.5 power valve in a motor that has 7.0 inches idling in gear

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You wouldn't want to try a 6.5 power valve in a motor that has 7.0 inches idling in gear

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Seems I can be a little slow sometimes.
This means that by going to the lower rated 3.5 valve, I made the carb run leaner than with the 6.5?

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Not at WOT the 3.5 opens at a lower manifold vacume, both P.V. will be opened at WOT The 6.5 will open sooner at part throotle cruise than the 3.5 will The main thing to check before selecting the power valve to use is to check the manifold vacume with the trans in gear, then select a power valve that is 1 to 2 inches lower than idle vacume I had the same saet of six pak carbs on several different motors, one with abg cam and another with a lot smaller cam, 518 C.I. versus 446 C.i. The big motor wanted a 2.5 P.W., it had 4.5 inches vacume idling in gear at 850 RPM the 446 C.i. motor had over 8.0 inches idling in gear, I found out that the little motor would make vacume in high gear at WOT on a 1/4 mile track making the 2.5 power open and close I put a 6.5 in it and that fixed the problem I had to put the lower(2.5) P.V. back in the center carb for the bigger motor when i put those carbs. back on it Going fast is never easy Be prepared to work and be disappointed some times while you learn

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I'm assuming that you are set on the octane you'll use. Yeah, I want the engine to run well on pump premium fuel. Here in CA, we're limited to 91 octane. I want to be able to drive it without having to resort to any sort of octane boosters. What about opening up the chambers (unshrouding the valves on the ends works well for more flow also) or deependng the valve notches or thicker head gaskets if you have no quench I thought of the thicker head gasket idea, but at .056 quench distance, I at least have some quench going on. I'm considering having the heads ported over the winter. I may be way off here but the 509 is an old school wild cam & I cant see that going more wild with a cam will get the the DCR down to where you can run the octane you desire. I agree to a point, but there is more to it. The Lunati has a later intake closing event. This will bleed off some cylinder pressure, reducing the dynamic compression ratio. The goal , and hopefully the result, is to reduce the octane requirements and allow the engine to make more power. Just me I'd feed this monster the octane it wants (& needs) & put the exact cam in there you want for your driving style rather than having to compromise your driveability with a wilder cam to run the inadequate octane you want & I dont think ANY cam is going to lower the DCR enough OR bite the bullet & do it right & lower the SCR & put the corect cam in there to suit your driving. You'll be happier in the long run. Holler how it turns out

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It has been awhile, but I'm busy with the project. I'm following the instructions and doing what makes sense, yet I've bent the piston stop twice and the crank hub wont stay tightly in position.
Cranking this engine over isn't easy. As I am leveraging the breaker bar to crank it over, it is hard to determine if the resistance is from the compression OR the piston stop. Am I supposed to take the spark plugs out to allow the engine to spin over easier? I'm pulling them out tomorrow just to see if it helps.
I really didn't want to do a half ass job on this. This is the biggest cam I've ever dealt with and I want to do it right.

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You will find that once you take out ALL the plugs, things will go much easier.

Once you don't have to muscle it thru compression strokes you will feel it bump the piston stop and you will be able to make 1 degree adjustments if needed.

Kevin

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Did you have detonation or pre ignition?

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Oh yeah.....10.7 compression and a cam that was too small for 500 inches of engine added up to 185-190 cranking compression and a dynamic CR of almost 9.0. I couldn't run even 31 degrees of advance on 91 octane. I ran a mix of 91 and 110 and it didn't knock at all. This cam I swapped in is bigger in every spec including a later intake closing. It should drop my Dynamic CR to aroun 8.10, the cranking comp to under 180 and I should be able to run on 91 octane safely.

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Maybe get this piston stop. It has an air bleed and is better stronger.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99412-1/overview/

That one looks plenty beefy!
get one of these
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67493
I have one that looks just like that one!

Pull all the spark plugs.
And why not the rockers way less work..

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I pulled the plugs today and resumed the degree process. With the plugs out, I was able to feel the piston stop easily. I came up with a 110 number. The cam card shows a 108 LSA with an installed centerline of 106, so I guess I am 4 degrees retarded. I have the 3 keyway type of timing set, so tomorrow I'll switch the crank gear to the 4 degree ADV setting and recheck the numbers.
My piston to valve clearance was a whopping .250 + at TDC ! I checked it at 15 degrees BTDC and ATDC, so I'm sure it is fine there.
I am happy that I didn't just install the cam dot to dot. Thanks to the many that chimed in to help!

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Make sure and START checking the P to V clearances at 15 BTDC and keep checking it in 2 or 3 degrees crank travel until the P to V starts to get bigger on both valves

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When you are done and running put a PV that is no more than 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 numbers below your "in gear" idle vacuum I/m guessing a 6.5 will be in the mark. And if your fuel is 10% ethanol go up two jet sizes from stock all the way around.

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Just as it appeared to be making sense, I run into more troubles.The crank hub I bought wont stay in position. The Woodruff key is a fraction smaller than the key notch in the hub and I get about a 2 degree slip in the hub when alternating from clockwise to CCW.
. I cant tell if it is exactly 2 degrees, just around that much.
I ended up using the crank dampner bolt directly against the degree wheel. I had already moved the crank gear and was set up to degree it at the 4 degree ADV setting. Somehow it went from the 110 C/L to 103. Huh??? How did the switch of 4 degrees get me a 7 degree difference? Add to this the crappy piston stop I've been using. You'd think the dang thing was made from compressed aluminum foil because the part that threads into the head is bent along with the bolt that threads inside it. Pretty hard to get any reliable numbers with such crappy equipment. A few times, the piston stop wanted to thread UNDER the exhaust valve and into the exhaust port! The exhaust valve seats are hardened steel so I'm cautiously optimistic that no damage was done. Maybe I should have established TDC with the rockers totally backed off? I guess this would ensure that the exhaust valve stays closed. The way the piston stop threads into the head at an angle, it is easy to bend it when spinning the engine over. Since it is only 3/8" thick and being bent 2 or 3 times already made it too crappy to trust. I tossed it in the scrap pile.
Moparts member "Dodgem" suggested this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99412-1/overview/

I just ordered one. By the look of it, theres not much chance of bending this one.
I'm wondering if the wide spread of degree (110 vs 103) is due to my crappy tools or the Timing set.

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This why I showed you the crank hub, the black oxide one, it bolts solid to the crank and won't move.

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which two pistons are at bottom dead center when #1 and #6 are at top dead center,

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is your crank socket grooved for a keyway? my comp cams one has 3 keyways and a brass tipped setscrew just to snug it up a little.

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yea but when your finding TDC your findng where the piston is not finding where the cam is! After is when you want to go Clockwise direction only!

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I am to turn the engine CW to maximum cam lobe lift then set the dial indicator to zero. Turn engine CCW to .100 then CW to .050 and record the number on the degree wheel. Continue rotating the engine CW until I reach .050 on the closing ramp and record that number. Add the 2 numbers and divide by 2.
If that is correct,

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CW and CCW to find TDC. CW only for degreeing the cam.

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I always check every cam at .200 before max lift, .100 BML and at .050 BML and after on all three

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Do you do this like the .050 method? ( Take the .200 numbers, add them, then divide by 2)
Is this a more accurate method than measuring at .050?

I have found that once all the tools are out and the setup is done, the actual degreeing of the cam doesn't take that long.
I will clearly admit here and now that I am converted. Since I have all the stuff, I will degree the cam in future engine builds.

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I always check every cam at .200 before max lift, .100 BML and at .050 BML and after on all three

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Do you do this like the .050 method? ( Take the .200 numbers, add them, then divide by 2)
Is this a more accurate method than measuring at .050?

I have found that once all the tools are out and the setup is done, the actual degreeing of the cam doesn't take that long.
I will clearly admit here and now that I am converted. Since I have all the stuff, I will degree the cam in future engine builds.

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The main reason I check them at all three locations is to make sure what the lobe grind is like, I've seen a cam have 105 at .200, 106 at .100 and 107 at .050 I'll usually check the cam timing on the lobes first, both of them ,and then when I get ready to check piston to valve clearances I will check at the retainers due to finding so many rocker arm sets not haveing the correct ratio on all of them I go ahead with the light checking springs and verify what the valves are seeing as far as cam lobe centers and intake lobe position As far as the math I make my sheet up with .200 first,.100 and then .050, find max lift and back the cam up to .300 or a little less befome max lift and then move the crank to get .200 BML, write it down, then do .100 and then .050, go to .050 after max lift and write it down under the .050 BML and do the math, same thing on the other two

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....I've seen a cam have 105 at .200, 106 at .100 and 107 at .050

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That is because it is an asymmetrical lobe.

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It wasn't suppose to be, according to the cam grinder

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Something not right there. I agree. The 7 degree spread between settings shows me either the slop in the degree wheel is a factor or the machining of the timing set is waaaay off.

More often than not, posters seem to get lost on why you degree a cam. I have a history to getting impatient and bypassing the details, but this time I am sticking with it.

The cam manufacturer has simply given a recommended ICL. Measure it how you like, but be consistent, as the ICL will change on most modern lobes based on the method you use. Then install it where you want.

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Install it where I like it. There is the "problem". I don't have enough experience to know where I'll like it. Maybe you mean to race it at different settings and pick the one that results in the best ETs? My goals are to eliminate the detonation and at the same time, make more power. My cam card called for an installed C/L of 106. I would have left it if it came in at 108.
What are the opinions of timing chain stretch? Would it be better to err to the ADV side? If it calls for 106 and the 4* ADV keyway gets me at 104-105, is that better than starting off at 107-108? Just a newbie perspective, but as the chain stretches, the cam timing comes in later. Is this a factor than you consider when degreeing the cam?

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Like your're doing, ask a couple people, people that you trust.....

Starting with 2 to 4 degrees advanced is a reasonable starting point. If it still pings, you can back it up 4 degrees. If it does not ping, but the bottom end is too soft for your liking, add additional advance.