Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388215
02/16/13 02:13 AM
02/16/13 02:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
M
Mike H Offline OP
enthusiast
Mike H  Offline OP
enthusiast
M

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
Thanks Jim, I will do the electric fuel pump. Any recommendations?

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388216
02/16/13 02:24 AM
02/16/13 02:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
More than likely being in cali the yota carb is not vented to the atmosphere , the holley is and the gas is evaporating .

try this next time it sits for a long period of time .

Before starting it pull off the air cleaner , look down in the carb wit the choke open and pump the throttle by hand , if you see fuel squirt the bowls have fuel , if you don't see fuel then the bowls are empty and the car isn't going to start till you crank it and the fuel pump fills the carb up enough for it to start.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388217
02/16/13 02:26 AM
02/16/13 02:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
I Live Here
SomeCarGuy  Offline
I Live Here
S

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
All good suggestions. The Yo might have an electric. You also need to remember that while gas is worse than when the Yo was new, it is LIGHTYEARS from what it was in 1970.

Try an insulator for the carb. That will help some. A Carter will be much worse than a Holley for fuel burn off in case you are wondering.

A 750 is in no way "overcarbing" a 383. Not by a long shot. Even on a stock engine. That's a time honored method of waking one up, I know cause I have done that.

You could solve all of this by just keeping a gas can handy and pouring some down the carb right after you check the oil. An electric pump would help, but isn't necessary.


I want my fair share
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388218
02/16/13 02:29 AM
02/16/13 02:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
I Live Here
Jim_Lusk  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Quote:

Thanks Jim, I will do the electric fuel pump. Any recommendations?




Nope, I haven't had good luck with electric pumps. We've run both a Holley pump and a Carter. The Holley started leaking and the Carter just plain quit working. There are good pumps out there, though.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388219
02/16/13 02:33 AM
02/16/13 02:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
I Live Here
Jim_Lusk  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Also, it is unlikely that a carb'd 86 has an electric pump. Looks like injection was also available on that motor, but there are electric and mechanical pumps listed for the Toyota and it's likely the mechanical was the only pump available with the carb. Easy to tell, though. turn the key to "on" and listen for the pump (looks for fuel pump fuse and relay, too).

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388220
02/16/13 02:43 AM
02/16/13 02:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
J
JoesMopar Offline
master
JoesMopar  Offline
master
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
Your Challenger wasn't designed to sit for weeks at a time. They started when new because they were driven all the time like your toyota. Learn how to start an old car that's sat for awhile or get an electric pump like everyone else has suggested.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388221
02/16/13 02:44 AM
02/16/13 02:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,543
chicagoland,usa
B
buildanother Offline
I Live Here
buildanother  Offline
I Live Here
B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,543
chicagoland,usa
The toyota probably has a carb that is sitting, on the manifold but not directly on a hot engine either, and probably also has a fully automatic choke too like the mitsus, that close automatically w/out the need to step on gas pedal. The old mopars were not designed for easy boil fuel either.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388222
02/16/13 02:54 AM
02/16/13 02:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
I see the frustration here, and personally, I get more frustrated with things that don't make sense to me.
You stated that you know little about carburetors, but that the old Toyota starts fine. There have been some good responses so far, but to recap:
The Toyota uses a carburetor that is sealed to the environment and the chance of fuel evaporating in diminished. It is obviously less sensitive to the modern fuels that we all buy at the pump. The 750 Holley is a great carburetor, but yours seems to run dry after a few weeks. I have dealt with this with every old car that I have had. It so happens that every old car has had either the factory late 60s/early 70s air cleaner and emissions package or an simply an open element air cleaner. To me, this one factor seems to prove the theory of fuel evaporation. The Demon 850 in my Charger poses no startup problems until about 3 1/2 weeks or so. The 67 Dart uses a 750 Holley on a 360 and acts about the same. I have ThermoQuad carbs on 3 other vehicles. They range from dry in a week to easy starting after a month of sitting.
The solution? As others have stated, the electric fuel pump is one way. Pouring fuel down the throat is cheaper though.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388223
02/16/13 03:01 AM
02/16/13 03:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here
DAYCLONA  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
As noted by many on this thread, your starting problems are more than likely the result of evaporation due to the Holley being vented,....I have mostly multicarbed cars running Holleys, when gas was good, yeah it could sit for weeks on end and start no problem, todays gas isn't even good for a week in a typical Holley fuel bowl it evaporates so fast, so rather than sit there winding the piss out of your car trying to start it, locate the tube vent on your Holley, and use a small squeeze bottle filled with gasoline to fill the bowl prior to starting, by filling the bowl thru the vent tube, 4 oz should fill it...


And it would be a good idea to set your fuel level/float, and/or confirm it's level...Holleys are the easiest carbs to tune/adjust/rebuild, get yourself a Holley tuning guide from HP Books and learn what you need to know...

Kere's one of the vents located on a Holley, connected to the primary fuel bowl

7590176-venttube.JPG (41 downloads)
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1388224
02/16/13 03:03 AM
02/16/13 03:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
Quote:

Quote:

So, explain to me Mr. csr carb man, why my Toyota starts and my sacred Holley won't. All I want to know.




Like I said above the Holley is probably empty of fuel and the Toyota carb is not. There could be several reasons for this, but most likely the Holley is leaking the fuel out. There are some things that need to be confirmed, but the simple solution is an electric pump. Modern fuels are more prone to evaporation so today's gas will make the problem worse.




The emissions carbs tended to have valves that would close so the carb bowls were not open to atmosphere when the engine was sitting. Your holley carb would not have this feature, causing the fuel to evaporate out of your carb over time. Also the carb could be slowly leaking internally. Whatever the cause, the result is empty fuel bowls in your holley after it's been sitting for a while. This means you have to do a bunch of cranking before the stock mechanical fuel pump can refill the carb bowls enough to provide fuel to fire it. Going to an electric fuel pump is a good solution. I've converted my carbed vehicles to electric fuel pump and never looked back. Just leave the key in the run position for a few seconds for the carb to refill, then pump the gas and hit the key and she fires up like you drove it yesterday.

When you go to install the electric fuel pump, there are two things to keep in mind. One, the fuel pump should be back near the tank so the fuel is pressurized for the whole run, not being sucked like the stock mechanical pump does. Second, you don't want to bolt the pump direct to your car, it needs to be isolated with rubber or foam with no bolts going through the pump body to the car. Failing to mount the pump this way will make for a noisy pump as the sound is amplified by the pump vibrating against your car.

If you check out summit's website they have a variety of pumps in the 80-100 dollar range that would suit your needs just fine. Summit, holley or carter brand pumps in that price range.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388225
02/16/13 09:44 AM
02/16/13 09:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
top fuel
Mattax  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Quote:

so its overcarbed with a 750, contoured bowls,



stock engine, and you're looking for good manners, is not a good match for a carb with an emphasis on high speed airflow. Does it even have a choke?

Depending on the year, and whether it is a california package, an OEM carb including Holleys will have a vent that closes when the engine is off. Take a look at a CAP equiped 383 and copy that.

The Holley 4150/60 style carb has one other weakness in terms of sitting around, if the seal of the fuel bowl gasket isn't perfect, fuel will seep out that way too. For a car that sits a long time, Holley brown or blue gaskets are best, the bowl screws need to be tightened enough and evenly, and no distortion.

The biggest problem with the new fuels is the curve. It's not just the eth, but that's a big contributor. Go spill some some alcohol and you know how fast that evaporates at room temperature.

I agree with the possibility that the line from the fuel pump to the carb may loose some of its fill as well. But if the fuel bowls remain full, the engine would catch after just a crank or two (assuming there is a choke).

Quick checks. First - 4150/60 style carbs have a fuel sight plug on the side of each bowl. SO take a look to see (small pen light may be needed) if there's fuel in the bowls. It needs to almost at the level of the plug or in the middle of the window on some of the newer versions.
Take the aircleaner lid off. Work the throttle and see if fuel squirts out and into the front two barrels (holes). If not, there's no fuel in the accelerator pump, and probably none in the bowl. The acceperator pump is another place fuel can seep out on a 4150/60 model.

There's introductory explanations to carbs, afbs, oem Holleys, and emmission packages over at the imperial club dot org. Look for the Chrysler Master Technician Conference booklets from the mid 60s into the 70s.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388226
02/16/13 10:37 AM
02/16/13 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
R
rbstroker Offline
super stock
rbstroker  Offline
super stock
R

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
I have three holleys on my big block. No problem starting in the spring after sitting all winter.
Maybe the Toyota rice paper gaskets and exposure to nuclear radiation help out the toy.


This is the land of the free because of the brave
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mattax] #1388227
02/16/13 10:45 AM
02/16/13 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr Offline
master
pnypwr  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
my convertible sat for 2 yrs with a 750 street avenger, elec choke. had to move it to get the snowblower out cranked it over 10 or 15 times pumped the gas 5 or 6 times cranked again...if it hits ill stop and pump the gas 5 or 6 times, if not i repeat with a 10 or 15 cranks then pump the gas. when it fires it runs rough but a steady pedal untill it levels out keeps it alive and has always worked for me even in the dead of winter. if you have white smoke coming out the pipes and its not running its flooded...hold pedal to floor and then try to start. I dont think its the carb or the fuel its more in the procedure of how your trying to start a dry carb. an elec pump could help bu you could also be asking for more of a headache...comes down to learn how to start the car when its sitting. as for the yota staring right up its a whole different animal, however when that carb messes up you wont get out of it for a 40 dollar rebuild kit...those things are a nightmare


"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"


05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: pnypwr] #1388228
02/16/13 11:38 AM
02/16/13 11:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 549
WV
J
JohnH Offline
mopar
JohnH  Offline
mopar
J

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 549
WV
Do what I did,,,, take that Holley off and replace it with a Edelbrook, That fixed my Holley problems..

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388229
02/16/13 11:39 AM
02/16/13 11:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
Mebsuta Offline
enthusiast
Mebsuta  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
IMO Holleys are pretty easy to start and Carters or Edelbrocks are a little harder if they are hot or get dry. Neither is really a big deal, even without a choke. You should see them try to start an R-3350.

If I let mine sit for a real long time, it usually means carburetor rebuild. It's an old hot rod, not a work or commuter car.

Last edited by Mebsuta; 02/16/13 11:44 AM.

68 Roadrunner. 383 4-spd. Beat up.
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: pnypwr] #1388230
02/16/13 11:43 AM
02/16/13 11:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
master
62maxwgn  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
Glad I don't have those problems,bird is 6pk,wagon 2x4's,can let both sit for 6/8 wk's and both will start in less than 6 rev's and you can get in and drive away and both have 8 psi mechanical pumps.Both have 105 low lead AV gas which has a high evaporation point but still not a problem.

7590374-Picture155.jpg (23 downloads)
Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: JohnH] #1388231
02/16/13 12:00 PM
02/16/13 12:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946
WI
Dcuda69 Offline
master
Dcuda69  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,946
WI
Just moved my B'cuda this week...it hasn't run since Oct. BB with a 800 DP...no choke. Few cranks and a few pumps.....lit right off!! It was about 20 degrees out too! The only time I had to pour fuel in this carb to start it was when the fuel pump ( yes,it's a mechanical) got tired......new pump and no more issues.

I would go through the carb with the good gaskets as mentioned(even though I have never touched this one) and put a different pump on it

BTW..as stated that is not too much carb for a 383...I ran one similar for years before I built a stroker

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: JohnH] #1388232
02/16/13 12:13 PM
02/16/13 12:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
M
Mike H Offline OP
enthusiast
Mike H  Offline OP
enthusiast
M

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
I really appreciate all the recommendations. The Holley has no choke- the guy who built the engine was adamant about it not needing one. Like I said, if I drive it consistently, it performs well, and idles down nicely after only one minute or so of running. It's definitely not a daily driver at this point in my life- maybe that's the problem. I've done the Stabil thing when leaving for Montana. I guess part of my frustration is the huge amount of time I have spent chasing parts, doing bodywork, sandblasting parts, paying attention to all the resto details, etc etc and then ending up with a problem I hadn't anticipated.

The first carb I had on the car was a new Edelbrock, I think a 1406? It had a terrible off-idle bog that we couldn't seem to get rid of. The Holley certainly runs great and did solve that problem.

I think part of the problem is that the Toyota spoiled me. I think 86 was the last year for carbed trucks. I have 230,000 miles on that truck with CA gas and the carb has never been rebuilt. I don't really understand carbs, but I did take it apart to replace a defective float, and again to replace an altitude sensing diaphragm. But I really don't get the theory. I just R & R.

Sorry for coming across so hostile to the Holley. Just venting.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388233
02/16/13 12:42 PM
02/16/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,543
chicagoland,usa
B
buildanother Offline
I Live Here
buildanother  Offline
I Live Here
B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,543
chicagoland,usa
It's okay Mike. I'm assuming you're a younger hot rodder. I'm 54 and have been tinkering with hot rods since my first 3 carbed cuda in 1977. Don't remember having so many issues with gasoline until the newer-recent blends, and have had elec. pumps on many of my carbed street cars lately to help with startups etc.

Re: Are all US carbs junk? [Re: Mike H] #1388234
02/16/13 12:42 PM
02/16/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
master
BSB67  Offline
master

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
The gas evaporates, its not the carbs fault. A simple solution is to buy a wash bottle (lab supply) and squirt a few ozs of fuel into the carb vent if it sits for any lenght of time. The white smoke is probably valve seal/guides.

Last edited by BSB67; 02/17/13 02:12 PM.
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1