|
Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
#1366147
01/08/13 12:10 AM
01/08/13 12:10 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
|
440 Source crank (not knurled) with a 440 Source billet retainer. When I first put the motor together, i used a Viton seal from 440 Source and the orange silicone side seals. It leaked. The leak was definitely from the seal, not the side seals. So I decided to try a rope seal instead. That leaked too. So I decided that maybe the problem was from the back of the engine or I just didn't do a good enough job with the rope seal. I re-did the rope seal (Victor Reinz JV551}, removed the trans. and checked the back of the engine, which was dry. I grooved the retainer to make sure oil could easily flow down from the rear main cap. Today I ran it for about 40 minutes. For the first 20 minutes, it was dry. But right when I was starting to feel good, it started leaking pretty heavily - like about 2 to 3 ounces in the next 20 minutes. Again, I'm sure it's leaking from the crank and not the side seals (I can see a drop on the crank}.
I've rebuilt probably 20 engines in the past, but the only two I've ever had rear seal trouble with are this one and my last big block (another 440 Source crank). On my last 440 Source crank, I had a knurled crank. I put a rubber seal on it, and it leaked, but I then installed a rope seal (with an Indy retainer) and it was fine.
The one constant here is the rear seal retainer. I almost replaced it this last time just to be cautious. 440 Source recommends shaving 0.010 off their retainer. I didn't do this, since I'm using a rope seal, and I figured it would make no difference.
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1366149
01/08/13 12:39 AM
01/08/13 12:39 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
|
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1366150
01/08/13 05:03 AM
01/08/13 05:03 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
|
Quote:
Read this and see if anything there can help:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
That was actually one of my primary references when I did the seal this last time. I found it interesting that some of the billet seal retainers have problems. I think I will either use another Indy retainer this time or go with a stock style.
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: phathemi]
#1366153
01/08/13 12:45 PM
01/08/13 12:45 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
|
Quote:
I'm interested in following this thread, had my engine (440/stock crank, vyton seal, billet 440 cap), out three times for this too. I can't confirm the source of my leak. I've got a manual trans and I'm wondering how much crank bell housing run out can impact and make this leak. I'm just within mopar spec, barely, and makes me wonder if it's enough movement to cause this. I've also gone back to stock oil pressure sending unit and removed my mechanical just in case the oil was faking me out by running down the back and appearing to be a crank seal leak. frustrated is an understatement!
Did you silicone seal all the mating surfaces?
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: phathemi]
#1366154
01/08/13 01:10 PM
01/08/13 01:10 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
I'm interested in following this thread, had my engine (440/stock crank, vyton seal, billet 440 cap), out three times for this too. I can't confirm the source of my leak. I've got a manual trans and I'm wondering how much crank bell housing run out can impact and make this leak. I'm just within mopar spec, barely, and makes me wonder if it's enough movement to cause this. I've also gone back to stock oil pressure sending unit and removed my mechanical just in case the oil was faking me out by running down the back and appearing to be a crank seal leak. frustrated is an understatement!
If there was enough pressure from an out of spec bellhousing to cause the crank to move I think you be eating input bearings on the trans and/or the pilot bushing, make sure the trans is not leaking , bearing retainer seal and gasket and especially around the cluster gear pin ...
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1366155
01/08/13 01:15 PM
01/08/13 01:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
|
Quote:
Did you silicone seal all the mating surfaces?
Absolutely. I'm always very generous with my RTV! Mating surfaces, back side of each seal, rear of seal retainer at mating surfaces (just in case the side seals leak).
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: GTX Mike]
#1366157
01/08/13 02:03 PM
01/08/13 02:03 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Did you silicone seal all the mating surfaces?
Absolutely. I'm always very generous with my RTV! Mating surfaces, back side of each seal, rear of seal retainer at mating surfaces (just in case the side seals leak).
I'd venture to say that's about 90% of leakage problems 
Many are so damn afraid of a leak they think the "sillycone" is going to help them when in fact it causes more problems than it will cure. Especially on a rear main seal.
I can't believe people do this thinking it will "help" seal things up. I'll also take a wild azz guess that most people think about the rear seal just before they drop the crank in without any pre planning or fit up.
JohnRR 
A rope seal on a smooth crank surface = potential leak.
Knocking .010" off a retainer? For what? I assume most that do this don't even consider mocking the seal up first. And BTW how is it suggested to take the .010" off, belt sander?
Who here Loctite's their bearings in place just to make sure they won't spin one?
When installing a rear seal, leave the sillycone in the tool box
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: roadhazard]
#1366158
01/08/13 02:40 PM
01/08/13 02:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Who here Loctite's their bearings in place just to make sure they won't spin one?
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: dogdays]
#1366164
01/08/13 08:22 PM
01/08/13 08:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
|
OK. Original poster here. I went home during lunch to scratch my head a little more to figure this out. I thought about crankcase ventilation, as I wasnt' planning to run PCV, since it's mainly a race car. I figured I was OK, since I have a filtered breather plugged into the valve cover. I took out the breather and blew through it. I was surprised to find strong resistance to my blowing, kind of like trying to blow up a balloon. I'm betting this is at least part of the problem (pressurized crankcase), and it would explain why the leak is somewhat intermittent (I ran the car for 20 minutes with no leak, then it started leaking heavily). I'll post back when I find out. 
Last edited by GTX Mike; 01/08/13 08:30 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: Hooligan]
#1366166
01/08/13 11:07 PM
01/08/13 11:07 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
|
I hooked up a PCV system and, well, no change!  The PCV system was working fine - the suction held a sheet of paper in place on the opposite valve cover. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether the crankcase is pressurized or under vacuum. At idle, it hardly leaks (maybe a drop every minute or so), but at rpm, it's more like a drop every 10 seconds. That Hughes one-piece seal sounds cool. I'll have to look that up.
|
|
|
|
|
