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B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? #1350161 12/12/12 01:02 PM 12/12/12 01:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	I'm wondering with the Advent of all the 520" plus cube strokers why B1's are not more popular? By it's design, the B1 corrects the biggest inherent "flaw" of the late 50's big block Mopar architecture...it moves the valve centerline (and I believe also improves the wedge angles) to the bore centers which gives both valves a much better flow margin around the outside of the bores. In many ways the B1 is essentially a "Race W'" small block scaled up to a big block head; And when they first arrived they were never really popular on the street, mainly becuase it meant custom piston notches and the ports were really too big and required too much RPM for a 440-470" street motor. But now with everyone building 511-572" inch motors the B1 seems like a natural. Of course you need the billet block rocker supports and custom offset rockers...but you need offset rockers on any of the big flow heads now anyway? I'm hoping Scott Koffel might get wind of this,,,to me it just seems like the marketing opportunity/cost to do a B1 really isn't THAT much more if someone is considering a roller cammed 511+ inch big block. the only other "drawback" to the B1 for the street is the race oriented flow window which relies on high lifts but I'm sure there are port window that could be developed to maximize the cfm in more streetable (sub .750" lift) ranges and milder spring rates. I'm thinking about a B1 572 with a streetable 2500-6800 rpm powerband, 800 horse with enough torque at any RPM to rotate the earth. Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 01:05 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350162 12/12/12 01:10 PM 12/12/12 01:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	The problem i see here is the rockrer arms and the cost to completion of the heads. BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350163 12/12/12 01:11 PM 12/12/12 01:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,397 Carson City, Nevada Biginchmopar pro stock
Biginchmopar pro stock Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,397 Carson City, Nevada	COST is the only hold up.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Biginchmopar] #1350164 12/12/12 01:19 PM 12/12/12 01:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Cost is an issue,but getting the topend oiling correct can be a pain as well as the valve spring length on the early original B1s.There is no doubt that they make big flow numbers and HP. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Biginchmopar] #1350165 12/12/12 01:20 PM 12/12/12 01:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout. To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths", of course the price difference is monumental...but by the time you consider/compare to CNC victors or -1's, (they also need custom offset valvetrain) well there's still a cost premium...it's just nowhere near as much as in years past, or as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't even in the game when the B1 came out. And if you're building/considering a stroker, you'll need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 specific valve notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from that shortblock perspective. Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 01:28 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350166 12/12/12 01:25 PM 12/12/12 01:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Musce motors was building such an animal a few years ago it was a street set up and made 900 or so hp and a torque curve to die for. http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/engines/king-krate.html Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350167 12/12/12 01:28 PM 12/12/12 01:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout. To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out. If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective. At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out. BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350168 12/12/12 02:03 PM 12/12/12 02:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	The B1's are "all figured out" as well. I know people that run them on the street and the T&D or Jessel stuff, works great if oiled through the pushrods.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350169 12/12/12 02:04 PM 12/12/12 02:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven EvilB1Dart master
EvilB1Dart master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven	Quote: Quote: I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout. To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out. If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective. At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out. True. But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc? I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM. Wes

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350170 12/12/12 02:05 PM 12/12/12 02:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven EvilB1Dart master
EvilB1Dart master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven	Quote: The B1's are "all figured out" as well. I know people that run them on the street and the T&D or Jessel stuff, works great if oiled through the pushrods. Very true. Thats the only way to run them........

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EvilB1Dart] #1350171 12/12/12 02:13 PM 12/12/12 02:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	I remember the very first set of B1's I ever held in my hands....on the bench was an old set of iron 67' 915 heads that had Lord-knows how many hours of hand porting done to them. I looked from one head and back to the other....It was hard to fathom how many years we raced the Iron heads...and then this masterpiece that absolutely DWARFED the stock head not only in flow but in sheer SIZE. Now we're talking! I've built an wrenched on several B1's over the years but never had my own set....a 572" B1 megablock has a nice ring to it, tuned for the street though....basically take a 470" 7800 rpm race powerband and compress it into an "all in by 6500" street motor. another 'one step beyond my 517. I'd like to find a black 70 Road Runner (personal fave) to drop it into, dog dishes...bench seat. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350172 12/12/12 02:17 PM 12/12/12 02:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven EvilB1Dart master
EvilB1Dart master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,334 Heaven	Quote: I'd like to find a black 70 Road Runner (personal fave) to drop it into, dog dishes...bench seat. WIZE, Would that be an AUTO or a 'fo-speed? Wes

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EvilB1Dart] #1350173 12/12/12 02:37 PM 12/12/12 02:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston S sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion S Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston	well, if your going to buy B1s then you should probably buy aftermarket block, and if your going to buy an aftermarket block then you should probably buy a callies crank and if your going to buy a callies crank then you should probably buy manley rods and if your going to buy manley ro............. Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EvilB1Dart] #1350174 12/12/12 02:38 PM 12/12/12 02:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	3 on the tree, baby!! Love to run my old school V-Gate set up, set back in the E body position. But then I'd have to swap to buckets. That was a pretty popular mod ( called 'butching' these days) to early B bodies back in my day....no wonder so many restorations need new center humps welded in Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 02:45 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: sixpackgut] #1350175 12/12/12 02:57 PM 12/12/12 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,171 Plymouth, MI Blusmbl master
Blusmbl master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,171 Plymouth, MI	Quote: well, if your going to buy B1s then you should probably buy aftermarket block, and if your going to buy an aftermarket block then you should probably buy a callies crank and if your going to buy a callies crank then you should probably buy manley rods and if your going to buy manley ro............. Exactly! As an aside, discounting the cost of the shortblock, what is the cost differential between 572-13, B1 original, Predator, and a Stage V Hemi head combo? Is "upgrading" to a Hemi the same cost differential as going from Indys to B1's? '18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350176 12/12/12 03:01 PM 12/12/12 03:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	I have never figured out why they are not more popular period. I think there are way to many myths out there about them. However I am sure the biggest issue with most people is pistons. No one stocks a shelf piston for a B1, so you have an additional cost there. Or could be guys are happy with Indy and their stuff. As I have said a hundred times if you cannot make at least 800 hp with a set of B1 originals you are doing something seriously wrong. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: dannysbee] #1350177 12/12/12 03:03 PM 12/12/12 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,171 Plymouth, MI Blusmbl master
Blusmbl master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,171 Plymouth, MI	Quote: Musce motors was building such an animal a few years ago it was a street set up and made 900 or so hp and a torque curve to die for. http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/engines/king-krate.html I wonder how much you'd lose with their hydraulic roller swap in there. 850+ horse on pump gas and you'd never even have to open the hood all season to check valve lash.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350178 12/12/12 03:10 PM 12/12/12 03:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida P Performance Only top fuel
Performance Only top fuel P Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida	Figure out the cost difference from a 440-1 top end to a B-1 top end. IMO any 572 street combo should have more than a stealth/ edelbrock cylinder head on it, but i guess it all depends on what the end user can afford to spend and how much power they can afford to give up. The B-1 head as cast is not what i would consider huge by any stretch, but even in unported form they will work very well on a street brawler with good overall power and torque without having to rev it to the moon. B-1's are a good cylinder head, but in the world of cylinder heads they are antiques compared to what other brands have available. There's only just so much you can do with a 4.8 bore space though. finally, I would agree that the marketing of the B-1 heads is lacking. ported Edelbrocks or stealths are too small for even a 500" combo to make any real power with, but they will make okay torque with the smallish runners/ cross section. machine shop owner and engine builder

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350179 12/12/12 03:12 PM 12/12/12 03:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,379 MD Kevins493 top fuel
Kevins493 top fuel Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,379 MD	Quote: I have never figured out why they are not more popular period. I think there are way to many myths out there about them. However I am sure the biggest issue with most people is pistons. No one stocks a shelf piston for a B1, so you have an additional cost there. Or could be guys are happy with Indy and their stuff. As I have said a hundred times if you cannot make at least 800 hp with a set of B1 originals you are doing something seriously wrong. Problem with that thinking is (as I'm sure you've already figured out), when you do a new build you have to order pistons anyways. Many 440-1 combos out there already run a custom piston for various reasons, so that cost is negated in a lot of builds. Yes the heads themselves are more expensive, but at this level the valvetrain is about the same cost (T&D or Jesel) for everyone and you don't have to get as aggressive with the cam to make the power you want...so you end up with a more reliable engine. Koffel should really be promoting this little detail. I think the other problem is that you can't simply throw a set of B-1's on an engine built around another head as an upgrade, without getting into the short block.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Blusmbl] #1350180 12/12/12 03:13 PM 12/12/12 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	832 lb/ft at 3700RPM It would probably still make 700 hp if you shoved a broomstick in the cam tunel by accident 7500463-king-krate-dyno-sheet.jpg (752 downloads) Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 03:15 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: sixpackgut] #1350181 12/12/12 03:14 PM 12/12/12 03:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL E EchoSixMike mopar
EchoSixMike mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL	Quote: well, if your going to buy B1s then you should probably buy aftermarket block, and if your going to buy an aftermarket block then you should probably buy a callies crank and if your going to buy a callies crank then you should probably buy manley rods and if your going to buy manley ro............. Yeah, they're not factory upgrade heads, but neither are ported Victors or -1's or big-EZ's either. You run those heads, you're going to want aluminum maincaps and probably a girdle as well and now you're within spitting distance of a megablock. The quoted combo is what I'm running on the street, except Winburg crank, not Callies, and BME pistons. And EFI on E-85. The big issue I'd see for street use (and guys not running E85) is the 65cc chambers. Big dish and a thick gasket to get streetable compression with big inches. Or else run race fuel and spend a mint. S/F....Ken M

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Blusmbl] #1350182 12/12/12 03:19 PM 12/12/12 03:19 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Piston Choice is big Killer but.. That and Indy dealers can discount Indy products and Do! Replacement valve for Indy--25 places to get one and low prices--for a B1 maybe 4x as much? In my mind it all comes down to a hundred places to get pistons for Indy style builds and High $$ customs for the B1 and only a few places to get it from. I think you will find that most users of the B1 live close to the source, I remember first time I did big Mopar show at Norwalk track there were B1's on tons of cars that had traveled to that show / race all from around Koffels area. Great heads but most racers etc build as much as they can as cheap as they can and the nod goes to shelf stock pistons and Indys.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: ] #1350183 12/12/12 03:24 PM 12/12/12 03:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 842 Baltimore,MD Bill_LBSR super stock
Bill_LBSR super stock Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 842 Baltimore,MD	Don't know much about B1s. Would headers off a 440-1 engine fit on a B1 setup? Or is the exhaust port layout different? LBSR

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350184 12/12/12 03:31 PM 12/12/12 03:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL E EchoSixMike mopar
EchoSixMike mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL	OK, what are guys talking about for pistons here? A new set of common brand (Wiseco, Mahle, J-E, etc) forged pistons is gonna be $600, maybe just shade less. A set of Diamonds with the B-1 valve reliefs is gonna be around $750. Hardly a budget buster. S/F....Ken M

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Bill_LBSR] #1350185 12/12/12 03:35 PM 12/12/12 03:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion. I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation. They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche. To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350186 12/12/12 03:39 PM 12/12/12 03:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,721 Portage,michigan B B3422W5 I Live Here
B3422W5 I Live Here B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,721 Portage,michigan	Quote: The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion. I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation. They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche. To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor maybe you arent so bad after all 69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.60 at 103.90 1/8

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Performance Only] #1350187 12/12/12 03:40 PM 12/12/12 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama Mopar-Al master
Mopar-Al master Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama	I think, going by memory, the Indy 440-1 top end set is in the middle 3500 range. Koffels has their sale going on right now and they are close to Indy's price for comparison. The draw back is the pistons and the return oil system. Koffel's even has a dicount going on for moparts members as well as the MC heads. Check it out http://www.b1heads.com/pdf/Koffels_Head_Sale3013.jpg Thanks to a few members here, I am running a 511 B1 set up. I did not go for the full all out stage port, with all the extra goodies though. It wasnt about the extra price for the MC stuff and Titainium valves, I got the basic kit, with a stage 1 port, since it was my first shot at building an engine with B1 original stuff. My car with me in it, weighs in under 2800, the power increase for the racing I do, is an absolute blast. Well worth the experience in trying out this combo for the first time.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350188 12/12/12 03:48 PM 12/12/12 03:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio dartman366 I Live Here
dartman366 I Live Here Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio	This is a good read as my engine builder is in the middle of a 572 B1 world block build as we speak so i will be watching and listening. Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: dartman366] #1350189 12/12/12 04:00 PM 12/12/12 04:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	Anybody ever flowbench the "as delivered" b1's as in the sale package? I'm tempted to do one, or else I might have to do one of those 'funny' motors that have the plugs that come through the valve covers WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: dartman366] #1350190 12/12/12 04:01 PM 12/12/12 04:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	They have that head sale every year and every year I stare at it saying to myself "should I?". I remember when I saw Brian Hicks' Challenger KOS car back in the day at the ROCK and he was running a KB aluminum B block at 470" or so running 8.80 after 8.80 with an old Compucar 200 shot. All steel car with KOS rules. The thing that really got my heart racing were his 8600rpm burnouts and his purge the nitrous with the gas pedal technique! He caught on fire that race unfortunately, fuel solenoid I think. Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EchoSixMike] #1350191 12/12/12 04:09 PM 12/12/12 04:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 883 Affton MO Q qwkmopardan super stock
qwkmopardan super stock Q Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 883 Affton MO	Or else run race fuel and spend a mint. S/F....Ken M In Midwest, 110 oct. Race fuel only little more than $2 a gallon more than 93oct pump gas. if you can afford B1 heads who would have a problem with $2 a gallon more for gas?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: 72Swinger] #1350192 12/12/12 04:16 PM 12/12/12 04:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,840 NW Indiana F fbs63 top fuel
fbs63 top fuel F Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,840 NW Indiana	The B1s you get at the sale price have no valve job. Just uncut seats. A valve job and a little bowl blending usally is 390 cfm or better. Fully ported Original 420. As stated you need upgraded rockers for any longevity. Seems B1 Vs other heads of equal flow, the B1s are quicker down the track. Must be how they fill the cylinder. 7500568-CarPic2.jpg (376 downloads)

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350193 12/12/12 04:46 PM 12/12/12 04:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 842 Baltimore,MD Bill_LBSR super stock
Bill_LBSR super stock Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 842 Baltimore,MD	Quote: The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion. I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation. They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche. To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor Thanks for the info, Al. Was thinking of possibly upgrading in the future to B1's and I just had custom headers made for my 440-1's. Sounds like the headers will work just have to adjust them a bit to work with the B1's. LBSR

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EvilB1Dart] #1350194 12/12/12 06:15 PM 12/12/12 06:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc? I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM. Wes Wes, It would be really cool if they could do that, but I think they would be out of business or need to use less quality castings. I don't know a lot about what it takes to make a buck in the aftermarket parts business, but my guess would be, the Koffel's aren't getting rich. Wes, you are/or have been a B1 guy too. Aren't the B1 packages pretty comparable with the Indy -1 packages, less pistons? Power is 100-150hp more. IMO PS How's the Predator deal working out?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350195 12/12/12 06:50 PM 12/12/12 06:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	Ok, let me turn it around a little.... What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle? How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time, Keep the shaft, center up them valves!! WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350196 12/12/12 07:05 PM 12/12/12 07:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Give the valves a little more angle too.... Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: EvilB1Dart] #1350197 12/12/12 07:13 PM 12/12/12 07:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,066 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,066 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: Quote: I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout. To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out. If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective. At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out. True. But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc? I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM. Wes Great idea/thought Wes , but the problem is they don't look like a STOCK iron head and you can't run stock stamped rockers on them.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350198 12/12/12 07:14 PM 12/12/12 07:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: Ok, let me turn it around a little.... What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle? How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time, Keep the shaft, center up them valves!! Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350199 12/12/12 07:17 PM 12/12/12 07:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,397 Carson City, Nevada Biginchmopar pro stock
Biginchmopar pro stock Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,397 Carson City, Nevada	Quote: Ok, let me turn it around a little.... What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle? How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time, Keep the shaft, center up them valves!! Mopar answered your request except for moving the valves. Mopar Stage VI CNC ported by Chapman flowed 385cfm with a 2.250" valve Nobody bought those either.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350200 12/12/12 07:26 PM 12/12/12 07:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 793 Utah topbrent super stock
topbrent super stock Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 793 Utah	506" B1 Engine Masters build. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginem...ne/viewall.html

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Biginchmopar] #1350201 12/12/12 07:28 PM 12/12/12 07:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,066 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,066 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: Ok, let me turn it around a little.... What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle? How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time, Keep the shaft, center up them valves!! Mopar answered your request except for moving the valves. Mopar Stage VI CNC ported by Chapman flowed 385cfm with a 2.250" valve Nobody bought those either. Wise has them on his 517 , I had a set , the issue was the price, most mopar owners want pro stock HP on a small block chevy budget. Mopar dropped the ball on the stage VI , they designed it around the stock wedge head valve length , what IDIOT at MOPAR thought that was a grand idea ?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350202 12/12/12 07:32 PM 12/12/12 07:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: [ Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more. some people on here do have -1's that go 380 or more..................... BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350203 12/12/12 08:07 PM 12/12/12 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Looking back, a lot of us got backed into the replacement type (SR,440-1,Eddys,etc) simply because they fit some of our parts OR, were familiar. A B1 seemed out of reach at the time because it required going the whole way. New pistons, valvetrain, intake, the whole topend plus pistons plus drain lines, ETC. Forgot to mention a converter change would also probably be part of the change. Add $1200 to the changeover. Advertising made a huge difference as well, and the Indy stuff and Edelbrock stuff well promoted. If you look at what can be done with a well worked 440-1 or 572-13 they make more sense for a 500 to 550 inch street motor because the torque peak is about 1000 rpm less on a 528 cube motor. A 440-1 will peak about 4900, B1 5900? So to my thinking the B1 is better suited to a huge(by yesterdays standards)street motor, 572 and up. Sure you can make the B1 run OK at 4500 rpm with a 500 cube motor, but the smaller port motor will pull harder there. I am still hoping someone with real world experience on a flat tappet/B1 combo would chime in to show what could be done on a smaller budget. With a 541 cube stock block, B1 heads and a big flat tappet cam, I would think that combo may have an edge over the Indy stuff within the range of the flat tappet cam. Specifically the Comp 650 lift, 290 cam. You can get by with the standard B1 rockers, the cam is cheap, and should rev to 6800 reliably. Last edited by gregsdart; 12/12/12 08:13 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350204 12/12/12 08:08 PM 12/12/12 08:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,688 On the parachute mount N n20mstr master
n20mstr master N Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,688 On the parachute mount	Quote: Quote: [ Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more. some people on here do have -1's that go 380 or more..................... My flow sheet says MORE than 380 on a 4.375 bore/fixture... ....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: n20mstr] #1350205 12/12/12 08:31 PM 12/12/12 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Quote: Quote: Quote: [ Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more. some people on here do have -1's that go 380 or more..................... My flow sheet says MORE than 380 on a 4.375 bore/fixture... Most good porters can get 375 to 380 cfm out of them, with a 2.25 intake. Mine flow 399/400 at huge lift due to using a 2.30 intake valve (.800/.900) but with the cam and port remaining the same the car never went faster. The flow with the bigger intake valve also had a weak spot where the flow at about .300 stayed exactly the same, so that might have been part of the reason the car never liked the change. 8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: n20mstr] #1350206 12/12/12 08:32 PM 12/12/12 08:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	I hear you on the Chapmans and yes, I do have a set on the 517 low deck. 380cfm at ~.700 is great but it's the 335 @.500 and the 361 at only .600 that makes them the killer head for 500 cubes. I've done The Indy -1's and since even full CNC'ed they wouldn't be much ( if any ) 'measurable' bit better than what I already have, I think they would be too small for what I'd want to do with a 572, essentially the same power at 500 rpm lower but with more torque...when the 500 already has all I need. The 572 B1 I would think would be the next '1 step beyond 'what I have, more flow/volume for a proportional increase in cubes, obviously needing a bigger cam for the extra cubes but would still allow me to pull past 7k. The thing about strokers is once they run out of head the torque noses over at a very fast rate ( all that extra stroke/piston speed and ring drag starts to work against you) since past the torque (VE) peak the crank's rate of acceleration slows and the rings start to act like a brake. ( Also true for all 4cycle motors) That's why I always build for the widest possible torque curve, simply because it's more fun to drive. The bore/valve centerlines and wedge angles are the key to the B1, if you scale down the port Cc and flow numbers to any comparable Conventional valve placement BBM head, it would still out torque and power it by virtue of the superior cylinder filling and evacuation efficiency. the chamber/valve placement is also generally why the small block makes more power per cube than the conventional big block all else being equal. The B1 design 'evens the playing field' I think Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 08:53 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350207 12/12/12 08:36 PM 12/12/12 08:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,688 On the parachute mount N n20mstr master
n20mstr master N Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,688 On the parachute mount	cant pistons be cut (valve reliefs) to fit a B! where a 440-1 once was? ....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: n20mstr] #1350208 12/12/12 09:14 PM 12/12/12 09:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Bring back the Chapmans! Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: n20mstr] #1350209 12/12/12 09:16 PM 12/12/12 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama Mopar-Al master
Mopar-Al master Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama	The flow sheet on my B1 originals with a stage 1 port job showed these flow numbers at these lifts .500 344.25 cfm .600 364.50 .700 393.75 .800 385.20 I have around 13.5 comp. I was having trouble figuring out a cam for my car, so asking here, Koffels, and comp, I had this special cam built for the car. This being my first B1 engine. I wasn't sure what to have built, it being a 4.37 bore 7.1 rod and 4.25 stroke. I bought a 6200 stall for my glide off of Chrisbarracuda since it was recomended for this cam grind. Does this look like a good combo? .775 in .766 ex timing at .050 int 29 btdc 75 atdc exh 82 bbdc 36 atdc 113.0 intake center line Dur. at .050 int 284 exh 298 lobe lift .4560 exh .451 Lobe seperation at 113.0 I use 1.7 rockers, How does this combo look to some of you guys? Is it a good choice? Or does anyone see room for improovement? I'm just starting to run bracket races with my car and still tuning. Car is around 2750 lbs. It feels good to me, for what I built ? So this is what i'm running with now.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Mopar-Al] #1350210 12/12/12 09:25 PM 12/12/12 09:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	Looks like a solid combo, curious about the wide and late LSA and ICL but lifts and dirations look good. Flow is only slightly better than my Chapmans but I'm betting the power up high is better since the chamber and valve placement is more efficient. It's a light car so I'm thinking the engine builder is trying to spread the torque and pull as much top end out of as possible. Btw, thanks to EVERYBODY for the great tech on this thread, sometimes ya just toss an idea out there and see what the tide brings in Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 09:27 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350211 12/12/12 09:35 PM 12/12/12 09:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,957 United Socialist States of Ame... T tboomer Too Many Posts
tboomer Too Many Posts T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,957 United Socialist States of Ame...	Great thread,guys! Maybe I should ask Radar his thoughts on these heads the next time I see him. Need your rear end checked out? Contact Grizzly!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350212 12/12/12 09:47 PM 12/12/12 09:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Some of us prefer wider LSA #'s..They work, in my opinion narrow LSA's(108, 110)are an old way of thinking. My current B1 Bullet cam is on a 114. Wide LSA's are not just for power adders "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350213 12/12/12 10:55 PM 12/12/12 10:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: Some of us prefer wider LSA #'s..They work, in my opinion narrow LSA's(108, 110)are an old way of thinking. My current B1 Bullet cam is on a 114. Wide LSA's are not just for power adders shhh your on moparts! BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gregsdart] #1350214 12/12/12 10:57 PM 12/12/12 10:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: [ Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more. some people on here do have -1's that go 380 or more..................... My flow sheet says MORE than 380 on a 4.375 bore/fixture... Most good porters can get 375 to 380 cfm out of them, with a 2.25 intake. Mine flow 399/400 at huge lift due to using a 2.30 intake valve (.800/.900) but with the cam and port remaining the same the car never went faster. The flow with the bigger intake valve also had a weak spot where the flow at about .300 stayed exactly the same, so that might have been part of the reason the car never liked the change. I don't think there is enough port volume for your combo on alky. BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: n20mstr] #1350215 12/12/12 11:14 PM 12/12/12 11:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,361 Wild West M_D pro stock
M_D pro stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,361 Wild West	Quote: cant pistons be cut (valve reliefs) to fit a B! where a 440-1 once was? If there is enough material on the piston dome and the rings are not too high they can be cut. Otherwise B1 valve pockets tend to break through into the top ring land and/or leave some pretty thin spots on the dome.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: M_D] #1350216 12/13/12 12:39 AM 12/13/12 12:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C M mopartoby enthusiast
mopartoby enthusiast M Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C	Great post!!! My 605 b1/mc motor is being built by mike and eric. Hopefully it will see the dyno next week. I chose the b1 stuff because i called and emailed indy to ask a few q's about there heads and never got a reply! The head castings themselves are cheap through koffels. Its the finishing part that costs the $$$$! And in my case custom pistons had to be purchased anyways as soon as it hits the dyno i'll post some results!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350217 12/13/12 01:02 AM 12/13/12 01:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	I have virtually the same cam within 2 degrees. Mine is 283/296/112 in at 110 and .7750 intake lift, .680 on the exhuast. Comp spec'd my install centerline at 108 with this cam, 528 cubes and 440-1 heads. I run it at 110 though. Last edited by gregsdart; 12/13/12 02:01 AM. 8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: mopartoby] #1350218 12/13/12 01:04 AM 12/13/12 01:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Quote: Great post!!! My 605 b1/mc motor is being built by mike and eric. Hopefully it will see the dyno next week. I chose the b1 stuff because i called and emailed indy to ask a few q's about there heads and never got a reply! The head castings themselves are cheap through koffels. Its the finishing part that costs the $$$$! And in my case custom pistons had to be purchased anyways as soon as it hits the dyno i'll post some results!! Good combo! 8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gregsdart] #1350219 12/13/12 01:45 AM 12/13/12 01:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta. go green super stock
go green super stock Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta.	20 plus year old heads . If you have to ask then you are stuck in a time warp feeding the dated zombie Mopar hoard. I find it way more offencive that we don't have any more heads to chose from in the past 10 years . The B1 heads should be parked right next to the MC hammer pants. 6.50 @ 226 MPH 4.25 @ 186 MPH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX86DHGKBo0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350220 12/13/12 03:41 AM 12/13/12 03:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C M mopartoby enthusiast
mopartoby enthusiast M Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C	You're almost right, they are a bit old school but they work very well!! And your predators work even better. But no way i'll fork out that kinda loot for that little gain over the b1's.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: mopartoby] #1350221 12/13/12 04:12 AM 12/13/12 04:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,933 Finalnd, Perkele J jyrki master
jyrki master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,933 Finalnd, Perkele	I have mainly tried them in pump gas engines around 500 cu in, and in those cases they haven't worked very well. They have huge ports compared to teh flow, which means low velocity. The ones I built did not make enormous power and were a bit shy on tq too. Even if they flow better than some others, I propably wouldn't use them except in all out engines. Different story with more cubes, I guess. And will find out, there is a set that made 780 hp on a 500 going on a 604 short block. We'll see.... Plynouth VIP '67 TT IC EFI

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350222 12/13/12 10:54 AM 12/13/12 10:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl P poisondart2 enthusiast
poisondart2 enthusiast P Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl	Quote: 20 plus year old heads . If you have to ask then you are stuck in a time warp feeding the dated zombie Mopar hoard. I find it way more offencive that we don't have any more heads to chose from in the past 10 years . The B1 heads should be parked right next to the MC hammer pants. Now that's a quote I will not forget soon! and sooo True! I want a MC Hammer fire suit to wear at the track,would be very comfortable instead of the skinny jean suit I have now. Time warp dated Zombie Mopar Hoard--Great name for on the side of a trailer. thanks for the idea's

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: mopartoby] #1350223 12/13/12 11:07 AM 12/13/12 11:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Quote: You're almost right, they are a bit old school but they work very well!! And your predators work even better. But no way i'll fork out that kinda loot for that little gain over the b1's. Now wait a second... when you use the term "little gains" can you qualify that for me. Im saying that max effort B1 Heads are great pieces, but the cost difference between them and Predators are not that much different and a predator can make substantially more power....

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350224 12/13/12 11:34 AM 12/13/12 11:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: when you use the term "little gains" can you qualify that for me. he left out when using a 509 purple shaft cam BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350225 12/13/12 12:14 PM 12/13/12 12:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas A Adrielp mopar
Adrielp mopar A Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas	Hello guys, I'm a graduating Mechanical Engineer(2days away) and this thread makes me wonder if I will make any money whatsoever in finishing a BBM canted valve cylinder head project I'm working on lol. Luckily, I'm passionate and driven to succeed so as long as things proof out, I will have them machined by the end of next year hopefully. Its a slow process when your doing it essentially by yourself. My question is what are people typically doing with these big stroker motors? That could be half of the problem right there. If most of these builds are being used in bracket racing, there's no need to go all out unless your trying to run Top Sportsman Naturally Aspirated. I know in my region, there are barely any Mopars running faster than 9.20's so the big strokers aren't really needed for that. Also, when I think of the faster cars, they either have Sonny's for power, a BBC, use a power adder, top of the line SB's, or use hemi99 power. In general, most mopar guys just run the brackets and are between 6.00-6.50 in the 1/8th mile. Now that I think about, there is one car at our local track that has a B1 motor and runs 5.20's. Other than that, I don't see many around my way or at local events elsewhere. Adriel Paradise Substation Design Engineer III

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350226 12/13/12 12:27 PM 12/13/12 12:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 2,528 Mansfield, Tx Jacob Pitt master
Jacob Pitt master Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 2,528 Mansfield, Tx	Quote: I have never figured out why they are not more popular period. I think there are way to many myths out there about them. However I am sure the biggest issue with most people is pistons. No one stocks a shelf piston for a B1, so you have an additional cost there. Or could be guys are happy with Indy and their stuff. As I have said a hundred times if you cannot make at least 800 hp with a set of B1 originals you are doing something seriously wrong. if I was to step up to "a real head" over my EZ-1's which I will do eventually I would have to buy all new rocker arms and pistons. Then have the assembly rebalanced and new rings. I don't know it just seems like a lot. If I was building from the ground up then it would be easier but as an upgrade it's to much. 2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ #4 in the World IHRA Stock 2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ 14x Track Champ All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Jacob Pitt] #1350227 12/13/12 12:55 PM 12/13/12 12:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	I think it is a double whammy. The custom pistons along with the custom headers put the b1's out of most people's comfort zone. Someone tool up a 2.25 header that will work on an A B or E body and I bet you would see many more. Probably some of the best money koffel's could spend would be to get a shelf header and pistons. The b1 has had it's day as the cutting edge race head but as a big inch street and strip or fast bracket alternative it could be a whole new horizon. I believe it would be just a matter of making the needed parts readily available. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350228 12/13/12 01:14 PM 12/13/12 01:14 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: 20 plus year old heads . If you have to ask then you are stuck in a time warp feeding the dated zombie Mopar hoard. I find it way more offencive that we don't have any more heads to chose from in the past 10 years . The B1 heads should be parked right next to the MC hammer pants. That statement really nails it I do a few SBC's every year for customers and EVERY time we build one we research the head choices--there are so many new ones each year! The options are astonishing. Wasn't the B1 an abanoned Chrysler deal? Wasn't the -1 Indy made from the leftover ( though updated) casting box from Zeeker? Indy Small Block aluminum head same deal from another maker that went bust? The Edelbrock was the only original from the ground up new head. Source just a copy of that. Oh well...we can make enough power with those to split stock blocks, guess that is enough. Oooh! Pistons have gone through the roof in last few months--even the shelf stock plain Janes--SRP, Protrues,even the Icon--all supposed to be cheaper than the flagship brands--wowy zowy!!!Pistons are CRAZY priced now! Near $400 for CAST KB's is just a JOKE as well!!!!!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: dannysbee] #1350229 12/13/12 01:27 PM 12/13/12 01:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Quote: I think it is a double whammy. The custom pistons along with the custom headers put the b1's out of most people's comfort zone. Someone tool up a 2.25 header that will work on an A B or E body and I bet you would see many more. Probably some of the best money koffel's could spend would be to get a shelf header and pistons. The b1 has had it's day as the cutting edge race head but as a big inch street and strip or fast bracket alternative it could be a whole new horizon. I believe it would be just a matter of making the needed parts readily available. Well put. And an offering of a slightly smaller port version capable of being ported to the needs of different engine sizes would go a long way to making them sale-able. 3 cnc versions, small, medium and huge. Think about it- a B1-PSO head with smaller ports but the meat in the heads to go as big as the basic head will allow. This would wind up being similar to a Brewer head, which worked like gangbusters for an inline head, but the market wasn't strong enough to make a go of it. Brewer heads were a match (or better) for B1Mc heads, yet made power 500 rpm below what the Mcs did. An old adage is "a wedge head is only as good as the length of its' intake valve" The Brewers are a great example. seems to me the basic B1 casting could be upgraded similarly. On top of that, make the valve train and mounting points in such a way as to accommodate different spring installed heights and rocker ratios. OK, the Christmas wish list is complete! 8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gregsdart] #1350230 12/13/12 02:16 PM 12/13/12 02:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Koffel's are you listening? Someone should send them a link to this thread. Lol Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gregsdart] #1350231 12/13/12 02:35 PM 12/13/12 02:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes. I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some reliability issues with them. Three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I dont have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal. As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install. As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there. Just my "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350232 12/13/12 03:06 PM 12/13/12 03:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	I guess my point here if there was alternative B1 (bore centerline valve reliefs) Piston readily available, other head MFG's could develop a head with the superior B1/W8 type Valve arrangement that wouldn't cost much more than the present offererings. If they assumed anybody buying that head was building a stroker, (How many people build stock 3.75" stoke 440 motors out their Keleno, MP or World blocks after all ?), it seems like this wouldn't be hard to do. As for the B1 header, yes it is an added expense, but maybe Koffel could run a test set of EZ-B1's (sorry indy ) that have a conventionally sized (but still very good) exhaust port. People say, well it's not gonna happen....and maybe not...but now Edelbrock is coming out with a Victor small block head that has a 2.15" intake valve....so that's not gonna just bolt on to most existing shortblocks without a piston swap (or some serious flycutting mods and maybe upsetting the bobweight/balance)either What if Koffell, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle? Last edited by Streetwize; 12/13/12 03:07 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350233 12/13/12 03:11 PM 12/13/12 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Woudl not just be the port size. The heads are wider and taller so the headers would be moved a great deal and need to be B1 specific. Having said that I have seen fenderwell headers used on an A body "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350234 12/13/12 03:23 PM 12/13/12 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	OK Wize, When I build my next motor, it will have a KB aluminum block and B1 heads (original or MC?). I might stay small CID to use my existing Callies 4.250" crank, so 4.500" bore would be 540-541 CID. But I need a better car to put that thing in! So it isn't going to happen in the next couple years. Maybe 2017... unless somebody buys mine sooner. I keep changing my mind, either going back to 10.00 ET or bigger motor and lighter car... LOL 1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350235 12/13/12 03:36 PM 12/13/12 03:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	I have a set of 2.25 headers that are for a b1 in a early b body that have one tube out the fender well similar to set of pro parts headers. These were custom built and on a RB b1. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: 440Jim] #1350236 12/13/12 03:44 PM 12/13/12 03:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Jim I vote for lighter and bigger..Same boat I am in. Porker of a car with a tiny motor. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350237 12/13/12 04:02 PM 12/13/12 04:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada E Edge mopar
Edge mopar E Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada	I will wade into this one with the risk of stirring the pot a little more.The direction you take really depends on where you want to go and how much money you would like to spend. The rough list below is in order of increasing cost. Of course there will be outliers or combos that make more or less than these rough figures. This is purely a general guide from my perspective. 550-650 Edelbrocks 650-750 SR's or B1BS 700-800 440-1 800-900 572-13 850-950 B1 original 850-1000 B1-MC 950-1150 Predator The points I am making here is that there is potentially alot of overlap between the engines built with the different heads. But there are some good choices available depending on what power level you are targeting. However if you are interested in a competitive top sportsman combination there really is no viable alternative at this time if you want to qualify in the top half of the field and run consistent. The 99 makes some good hp and while suitable for comp not so useful for a T/S deal with a peaky powerband. Naturally aspirated if you want big power time to give up brand loyalty and move on to many good higher output alternatives. Flame away ! 76 Duster work in progress

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: dannysbee] #1350238 12/13/12 04:10 PM 12/13/12 04:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama Mopar-Al master
Mopar-Al master Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama	You had a couple of options for B1 heads. B1BS and B1 originals. I wonder how well a BS head works when done all out? They are not expensive. The originals were made for racing, not street car and small et numbers. That's why we were offerd 2 back in the day. I pulled my engine out of my race car , installed the B1 and got to use the same Headers. They even fit better. (tube chassis) Serious racer will go the extra length to have the headers made, or make them their selves. Koffel's has the 2 3/8 flanges already. You can get by with smaller. By the way, Koffel's keeps pistons in stock. I really have never bought a shelf piston for racing. They were always needing deeper pockets for a better cam choice. Everything has it's limits. You ever run a 440 source kit? They advertised notches up to around 700 lift. Zero deck and you fly cut. Most are around 12 in the hole. MR P has a set of kick azz pistons forsale for the MC B1's at a fantastic price if someone is going that route. And can be used on an original

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350239 12/13/12 04:18 PM 12/13/12 04:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Speculation is a Mopar guys worst enemy

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Mopar-Al] #1350240 12/13/12 04:19 PM 12/13/12 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	For me its simple......price. I guess I am poor next to some of the guys on here. I sometimes wonder how so many people have the money they do to spend on the hot rod ? I wish I had more but alot of people like me have to live within our means. Thats why I went with EZ heads as I wanted to stay with stock rockers and stock exh port location. I know I am giving up hp but its a budget I can afford and I feel the EZ's are better then the Eddy RPM's and any iron head. Course my 63 is basically a street car that I love to race when I can afford too and I new mid to high 10's on pump was all I could afford. Ron Last edited by 383man; 12/13/12 04:20 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Mopar-Al] #1350241 12/13/12 04:19 PM 12/13/12 04:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	And an edelbrock is just a copy of a facory cast head.... so thats nothing new for us

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350242 12/13/12 04:39 PM 12/13/12 04:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida P Performance Only top fuel
Performance Only top fuel P Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida	I think the bottom line is that we're at a severe disadvantage simply because of the small bore spacing. None of the current head offerings even come remotely close to what the competition has available off the shelf. Without a 5" bore space block and heads to match we're just going through the motions. you can only get just so much valve in a 4.8" bore space chamber and at a max 4.560 bore in most cases, we aren't even close to having a head with a better runner design and valvetrain to match. Without power adders there's just so much you can do. I hate to put it that way but that's the way it is. machine shop owner and engine builder

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350243 12/13/12 04:41 PM 12/13/12 04:41 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Wise first asked why there were not more B1's out there on big strokers. MOST Mopar guys are going to build the most for the least that they can. The easy route is what is most available, what their friends run and know, and the Cheapest. So..stock block, cheapo China rotating kit, Eddys or a discounted Indy kit. Yep...they blow them up by splitting stock blocks--then they spend more on stock block band aids ( I am not a fan--straight stocker with some studs or Move up to an aftermarket block) In the end most racers finally buy an aftermarket block after they have ruined every stocker they had in the barn--then they use the heads they HAVE already so you see Eddys on all kinds of big strokers. B1's with New pistons, new headers, etc never enter their minds--ever! Just my two cents worth.... Mopar Guys that run with the big dogs ( the very few ) Really have to pay the "Mopar Tax" to keep up with a big inch Chevy. Its a pity but just the way it is.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Mopar-Al] #1350244 12/13/12 04:43 PM 12/13/12 04:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma V Von master
Von master V Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma	Quote: You had a couple of options for B1 heads. B1BS and B1 originals. I wonder how well a BS head works when done all out? IMO, the BS head is no better than a comparably ported RPM head. I have a nice set that flow very comparable to a CNC'd RPM head. The exhaust on the BS head does flow better than a RPM though. But, I do believe the BS head has a larger intake port volume than the RPM. Chamber design is superior with the BS also. With that said, I see no real reason to buy a BS head, when compared to a RPM. They take special rockers, exhaust port is raised, on and on. Id go -1s/SRs at that point, depending on intended combination. 72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350245 12/13/12 04:45 PM 12/13/12 04:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Al yes I do. A lot of people don't live in the populated Areas that' will have the services available to fab up a set of headers. My guess in my area a custom set would run 2000 plus. I don't know of any starving artists in this area. If having an off the shelf header was not important, do you think Indy would have put the money in tooling and patterns to do the EZ's? Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: ] #1350246 12/13/12 04:50 PM 12/13/12 04:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA. pittsburghracer "Little"John
pittsburghracer "Little"John Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA.	This car (Tim's Toy) has gone some 8.60's with a set of B1-BS heads. And his son's car has been in the high 8.80's with and old set of Edelbrock heads, not Victors. Pretty sure he ran some high 8.70's late in the season this year. 1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27 Livin and lovin life one day at a time

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Von] #1350247 12/13/12 05:05 PM 12/13/12 05:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama Mopar-Al master
Mopar-Al master Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,780 Alabama	Quote: Quote: You had a couple of options for B1 heads. B1BS and B1 originals. I wonder how well a BS head works when done all out? IMO, the BS head is no better than a comparably ported RPM head. I have a nice set that flow very comparable to a CNC'd RPM head. The exhaust on the BS head does flow better than a RPM though. But, I do believe the BS head has a larger intake port volume than the RPM. Chamber design is superior with the BS also. With that said, I see no real reason to buy a BS head, when compared to a RPM. They take special rockers, exhaust port is raised, on and on. Id go -1s/SRs at that point, depending on intended combination. Von, I had thought the BS head took the same rocker gear as the 906. That is why they are the Budget head. Also made in the USA. Eddy heads port to a max wedge size? I know on an eddy head, when you shave the intake face, you have little room for the valve cover/ intake fit. And it gets close for the vc bolts. We have had these options for years actually. I to have Indy stuff here as well. I just wanted to stand up and try the B1. It has been around for so long and I always see Indy and Eddy. You will not see me knocking Indy. I am enjoying the B1's and liking them.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Mopar-Al] #1350248 12/13/12 06:07 PM 12/13/12 06:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C. Streetwize OP master
Streetwize OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,876 Weddington, N.C.	This reminds me of something another Wize man one told me... A sledgehammer is 'old technology' too....but in the right hands it's still pretty [Email]d@mn[/Email] effective!!! Somebody just scale up a w8 to fit a big block so I can get a nice big 2.400 intake valve in there and I'll buy a new set of slugs and be done with it. @pittsburgracer Need more pics of that altered wheelbase 'mini Charger''...too cool It'd be cool if there was a scaled down ( ~7/8 scale) 68-70 Charger body that would fit on about a 105" wb tube chassis....now THAT would be cool Last edited by Streetwize; 12/13/12 06:12 PM. WIZE World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI In Car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350249 12/13/12 06:10 PM 12/13/12 06:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 614 new jersey G gillman34 mopar
gillman34 mopar G Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 614 new jersey	Quote: Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes. I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I dont have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal. As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install. As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there. Just my Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads? This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Thanks

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gillman34] #1350250 12/13/12 07:13 PM 12/13/12 07:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 511 florida dade C cesar perez mopar
cesar perez mopar C Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 511 florida dade	the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Streetwize] #1350251 12/13/12 07:32 PM 12/13/12 07:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA. pittsburghracer "Little"John
pittsburghracer "Little"John Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA.	Quote: This reminds me of something another Wize man one told me... A sledgehammer is 'old technology' too....but in the right hands it's still pretty [Email]d@mn[/Email] effective!!! Somebody just scale up a w8 to fit a big block so I can get a nice big 2.400 intake valve in there and I'll buy a new set of slugs and be done with it. @pittsburgracer Need more pics of that altered wheelbase 'mini Charger''...too cool It'd be cool if there was a scaled down ( ~7/8 scale) 68-70 Charger body that would fit on about a 105" wb tube chassis....now THAT would be cool Same race, different angle. 1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27 Livin and lovin life one day at a time

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: cesar perez] #1350252 12/13/12 07:49 PM 12/13/12 07:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan B1Fish540 master
B1Fish540 master Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan	Quote: the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13 I look at how long the valve is. This is the best indicator how much power a head will produce. B1s have the longer valve, but the rare Brewer head has even longer valves and is superior to the Original B1 by 20 or 30 cfm. The 440-1 is good for a stock valve location and size head, but falls short of the B1...the 572-13 Indy just has'nt produced the power it should... maybe the valve length is to blame? On costs, the 540" B1 in the Cuda costs about 13K to have built..that included dyno time. And the motor was "all new", no old factory parts..,it was built by Schofield Machine in Clinton, MO

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: cesar perez] #1350253 12/13/12 08:03 PM 12/13/12 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing U unknown mopar
unknown mopar U Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing	Quote: the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13 Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: unknown] #1350254 12/13/12 08:06 PM 12/13/12 08:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Steve, I sent you a PM. I will reword what I typed before but stand by my statements on the reliability. Engine killing part was not fair and I apologize for that. Had things been caught earlier it that would not likely have been the result. Allthe issue were oiling problems, possibly just a result of something causing a problem with the lifter position in it's bore or a flaw in the available blocks, but the result in all cases was the same. Part of the reliability issues are likely due to the power level of the engines to begin with and probably what the people using them are trying to do. But for me a lowly bracket and super class guy reliability is as important as power. I want power but HAVE to have reliability first and foremost. I have an engine that makes decent power but I dont think I would want to try and run that 99 in Super Gas. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: unknown] #1350255 12/13/12 09:27 PM 12/13/12 09:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl P poisondart2 enthusiast
poisondart2 enthusiast P Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl	Quote: Quote: the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13 Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads. I have never seen a set on a car. Do you have them and if so tell us about them

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: poisondart2] #1350256 12/13/12 09:32 PM 12/13/12 09:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Well not going ot be a fair comparison as the 600-13 is for a different bore space block is it not?? Thought they were only for the 4.84 block, so that would be a BIG advantage in itself. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350257 12/13/12 09:42 PM 12/13/12 09:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl P poisondart2 enthusiast
poisondart2 enthusiast P Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 341 Highland beach Fl	Quote: Well not going ot be a fair comparison as the 600-13 is for a different bore space block is it not?? Thought they were only for the 4.84 block, so that would be a BIG advantage in itself. Thanks Al guess that is why I have never seen a set on a car

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gillman34] #1350258 12/13/12 10:09 PM 12/13/12 10:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,667 Arizona C Chris'sBarracuda master
Chris'sBarracuda master C Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,667 Arizona	Quote: Quote: Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes. I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal. As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install. As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there. Just my Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads? This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Thanks As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of.. However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek?? Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up?? If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit.. Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too. I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO.. That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators.. Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with.. Chris...

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: poisondart2] #1350259 12/13/12 10:12 PM 12/13/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing U unknown mopar
unknown mopar U Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing	Quote: Quote: Quote: the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13 Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads. I have never seen a set on a car. Do you have them and if so tell us about them [/quote No I do not have them,Years ago I was on a Hemi kick and spent my money on Hemi parts.Looking back I kind of wish I would have bought the wedge stuff. Yes the 60013x heads are for 4.84 BS blocks,not a big deal, I need to buy a race block any way.The cars that I did see run with those heads seam to run very well.Back in the day, the Mopar Mania gang ran the Indy stuff.The guys that I talk to claim those heads flow 470+ cfm with the 2.450 intake valve. So I would say the 600-13x heads would put a whiping on the B1 originals.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: unknown] #1350260 12/13/12 11:03 PM 12/13/12 11:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	I have been racing B1 originals for 12 years now with good results. I've seen a few 600-13's on 655's and they weren't very impressive for the cost. Sure they might make slightly more power than B1 originals, but I would bet B1/Mc's would keep up with them on a 655, although they are not available for a 4.84 bore center block. Now for the Predators....having raced several B1 combos...and even though my Predator combo hasn't transfered the type of power I feel in my pants with it...I will get that baby to fly when I'm done working out the combo. There is no comparison in the power I feel now versus the power in the B1 deal. Not knocking the B1, just pointing out the difference. And the fastest 655 600-13 motor I've witnessed went 7.60's in a pro stock type car that weighed around 2350#'s. That was right before it granaded. I was running 8.30's in my 572 B1 Original 1850# car at the same track. I'm pretty sure my Predator 604 deal will run in the low 7.0's at that track when I get it figured out. And the only reason people might be having problems with the Predatos is, they are new and very few people have them, so just like when the B1's first came out, we are still figuring them out. That is unless you want to call someone like Steve Gill or Ceralli's in NJ. They have it figured out. Oh.....and boatracer 572, he has it figured out. I'm sure others do to....but those are the ones I know unless you want to turbo them....then get ahold of Gogreen!!! Oh, and I'll be building another Predator as soon as I can afford it. Wheatcraft is another one, sorry Chris.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: unknown] #1350261 12/13/12 11:22 PM 12/13/12 11:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada D Diablo super stock
Diablo super stock D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada	B1-O vs the 600-13x are truly apple to oranges. Apples to a closer Apple would be the the 600-13 VS the B1-TS heads both on a 4.840 bore spacing both can have the 2.45 Int valve.... The TS will be on the upper hand for sure in that case. Really what everyone wants in a head for nothing. A heads that flowed 450+cfm that you can put your 906 rocker gear and valves in..... We might be at a disadvantage in many ways but when it comes down to it, you say a Horsepower range you want your engine in and there is a head that will do it. Cost is another thing but the heads are there. Even if some are dinosaurs. (Even if most are dinosaurs) I forgot who made the list of heads here on the post but he missed a few (PSO, Brewer, TS) with even more overlapping hp possibilities and then he didn't mention any of the Hemi heads out there.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Diablo] #1350262 12/13/12 11:35 PM 12/13/12 11:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: B1-O vs the 600-13x are truly apple to oranges. Apples to a closer Apple would be the the 600-13 VS the B1-TS heads both on a 4.840 bore spacing both can have the 2.45 Int valve.... The TS will be on the upper hand for sure in that case. Really what everyone wants in a head for nothing. A heads that flowed 450+cfm that you can put your 906 rocker gear and valves in..... We might be at a disadvantage in many ways but when it comes down to it, you say a Horsepower range you want your engine in and there is a head that will do it. Cost is another thing but the heads are there. Even if some are dinosaurs. (Even if most are dinosaurs) I forgot who made the list of heads here on the post but he missed a few (PSO, Brewer, TS) with even more overlapping hp possibilities and then he didn't mention any of the Hemi heads out there. True, but the ones he mentioned were pretty close to the horsepower levels' he mentioned...maybe a bit low but not by much. Diablo, you're just more advanced than most if us. Or at least more willing to spend money to meet your goals, and know what it costs. Oh well, maybe some day.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Diablo] #1350263 12/13/12 11:42 PM 12/13/12 11:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA. pittsburghracer "Little"John
pittsburghracer "Little"John Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA.	7 second Indy headed NA (no adder) engine. 1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27 Livin and lovin life one day at a time

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1350264 12/14/12 12:49 AM 12/14/12 12:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 614 new jersey G gillman34 mopar
gillman34 mopar G Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 614 new jersey	Quote: Quote: Quote: Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes. I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal. As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install. As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there. Just my Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads? This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Thanks As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of.. However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek?? Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up?? If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit.. Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too. I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO.. That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators.. Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with.. Chris... To answer the OP's original question, they dont move enough air without serious work,that's why there is the B1 PSO. Eddie's issues were never directly related to the Predator head. He had a lifter come apart and broke a valve,perhaps Sixpackgut can relive his Dragweek experience with Eddie as he was there thru the whole trip.His thread on that was hilarious!!!! For what it's worth Eddie has been in the 7's with that engine,on pump gas with spray and many street miles.The 572-13 engine got him low 8's, He really does drive that car all over,I can personally attest to that. As far as age goes,the current moved exhaust valve/improved valve train geometry design has been out since 2006.They are the only canted/splayed valve head for BB Mopar and move more air than all the others except the Stage V Millennium Hemi and the Hemi 99. I have owned and raced them all,from chapman/bulldogs to b1mc's and each one has it's place in the progression of engine size.You would'nt put a set of 906's on a 655" engine and expect it to make power would you? The heads are just one piece of the puzzle,just like cam or converter or gear or tire size etc, you guy's get my point. Before I get dismissed as the "Predator Guy" I have and do sell and install other heads besides Predators,If your combo will benefit from 440-1's than that is what I will recommend.If PSO's are what you need,I'm sending you to Chuck and Pete,and so on. Each head out there has it's place in the equation,that's why it's important to talk to an experienced engine builder before you make any decisions to buy a particular head,bigger is not always better.Rant off,you may now go back to your regulary scheduled programming.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gillman34] #1350265 12/14/12 01:08 AM 12/14/12 01:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan B1Fish540 master
B1Fish540 master Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan	thats a cool car pittsburgracer (and fast!) unfortunately, i dont think we will see Scott comment on this thread(about the idea they bring down the cost/produce more.)Koffel's have all the business they want, IMHO. They dont want to expand. i.e., you wont see them becoming another Indy with zillions of head options. I love the koffels and what they have done for mopar, that's enough for me. but i would like to see someone make Brewer heads again..

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gillman34] #1350266 12/14/12 01:18 AM 12/14/12 01:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada E Edge mopar
Edge mopar E Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada	Was not trying to list every wedge head in my earlier post, but I will throw in a few more wedge heads. 450-575 906 516 and countless others 550-650 Edelbrocks 600-700 Stage VI 650-750 SR's or B1BS 700-800 440-1 800-900 572-13 850-950 B1 original 850-1000 Zeeker 850-1000 B1-MC 900-1150 B1-PSO 950-1200 Predator 950-1200 Indy 600-13X 950-1250 B1-TS Some may consider the estimates on the low side but I prefer the term conservative. 76 Duster work in progress

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Edge] #1350267 12/14/12 02:42 AM 12/14/12 02:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta. go green super stock
go green super stock Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta.	Predator next to a B1 Edelbrock RPM 6.50 @ 226 MPH 4.25 @ 186 MPH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX86DHGKBo0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350268 12/14/12 03:07 AM 12/14/12 03:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Looks an aweful lot like a 99 Hemi "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: pittsburghracer] #1350269 12/14/12 11:27 AM 12/14/12 11:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: 7 second Indy headed NA (no adder) engine. I sure would like to hear more about this ride.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350270 12/14/12 01:26 PM 12/14/12 01:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C M mopartoby enthusiast
mopartoby enthusiast M Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 395 campbell river B.C	Quote: 20 plus year old heads . If you have to ask then you are stuck in a time warp feeding the dated zombie Mopar hoard. I find it way more offencive that we don't have any more heads to chose from in the past 10 years . The B1 heads should be parked right next to the MC hammer pants. Like the canted valve head design is something new?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: mopartoby] #1350271 12/14/12 01:46 PM 12/14/12 01:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Plumb Wired] #1350272 12/14/12 02:09 PM 12/14/12 02:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 2,657 Stuttgart, Arkansas rickseeman master
rickseeman master Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 2,657 Stuttgart, Arkansas	Yeah 7503022-avengright.jpg (589 downloads) 2011 Drag Pak Challenger

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gillman34] #1350273 12/14/12 02:13 PM 12/14/12 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston S sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion S Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston	Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes. I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal. As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install. As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there. Just my Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads? This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Thanks As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of.. However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek?? Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up?? If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit.. Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too. I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO.. That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators.. Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with.. Chris... To answer the OP's original question, they dont move enough air without serious work,that's why there is the B1 PSO. Eddie's issues were never directly related to the Predator head. He had a lifter come apart and broke a valve,perhaps Sixpackgut can relive his Dragweek experience with Eddie as he was there thru the whole trip.His thread on that was hilarious!!!! For what it's worth Eddie has been in the 7's with that engine,on pump gas with spray and many street miles.The 572-13 engine got him low 8's, He really does drive that car all over,I can personally attest to that. As far as age goes,the current moved exhaust valve/improved valve train geometry design has been out since 2006.They are the only canted/splayed valve head for BB Mopar and move more air than all the others except the Stage V Millennium Hemi and the Hemi 99. I have owned and raced them all,from chapman/bulldogs to b1mc's and each one has it's place in the progression of engine size.You would'nt put a set of 906's on a 655" engine and expect it to make power would you? The heads are just one piece of the puzzle,just like cam or converter or gear or tire size etc, you guy's get my point. Before I get dismissed as the "Predator Guy" I have and do sell and install other heads besides Predators,If your combo will benefit from 440-1's than that is what I will recommend.If PSO's are what you need,I'm sending you to Chuck and Pete,and so on. Each head out there has it's place in the equation,that's why it's important to talk to an experienced engine builder before you make any decisions to buy a particular head,bigger is not always better.Rant off,you may now go back to your regulary scheduled programming. the problem we had in 08 stemmed from overheating issues. as the engine got hotter and hotter the lash kept growing and then would start eating lifters. what we found out at the end of the week was that for some reason, whether it was the head gasket or the head, the coolant holes at the ends of the heads were badly misalighned. I know that after Eddie fixed the coolant hole problems there were no more problems. Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Plumb Wired] #1350274 12/14/12 02:31 PM 12/14/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350275 12/14/12 03:05 PM 12/14/12 03:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas A Adrielp mopar
Adrielp mopar A Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas	Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together. Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion. PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own. Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!). 7503093-Chamber1.jpg (377 downloads) Last edited by Adrielp; 12/14/12 03:06 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Al_Alguire] #1350276 12/14/12 04:34 PM 12/14/12 04:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking If I ever decide to try and rotate the earth I will have a Sonny's Hemi. Plus Sonny's is only about 30 minutes from me! But for now I guess I'll just have to use this B1-MC junk. RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Plumb Wired] #1350277 12/14/12 04:38 PM 12/14/12 04:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking If I ever decide to try and rotate the earth I will have a Sonny's Hemi. Plus Sonny's is only about 30 minutes from me! But for now I guess I'll just have to use this B1-MC junk. If you have the cash to buy it and maintain it, that's the way to go. You'll only need a wheel barrow full of $100 bills, a big one.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Plumb Wired] #1350278 12/14/12 04:46 PM 12/14/12 04:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL E EchoSixMike mopar
EchoSixMike mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 494 IL	Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? The same reason that stops everybody: money. S/F....Ken M

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350279 12/14/12 04:47 PM 12/14/12 04:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	We were out at dinner during SCSN last year and ran into one of the pro street teams. We started talking over adult beverages and the subject of engines and cost came up. They told us that a sonny's motor was basically $100 per cube for a complete motor. Oh yeah they had two in the trailer 904, 864 and one in the car 904 Have a freind and fellow Mopar guys , the Vettel's who now run ADRL TS and Pro Mod stuff that runs the big wedge stuff, 900+ cubes and they said basically the same thing. That is indeed a lot of $100 bills To think Craig Olsen had a 762 a 935 and the 1005 incher in his TD and TS cars "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Adrielp] #1350280 12/14/12 05:35 PM 12/14/12 05:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston S sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion S Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston	Quote: Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together. Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion. PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own. Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!). maybe some more pictures are in order because I can't tell what i'm looking at. that can be for anything. doesnt look like a BB mopar bolt pattern Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Plumb Wired] #1350281 12/14/12 05:39 PM 12/14/12 05:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Well you could just buy this.... 7503297-5in.JPG (558 downloads)

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350282 12/14/12 05:39 PM 12/14/12 05:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Its in stock 7503298-5in2.JPG (594 downloads)

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350283 12/14/12 05:40 PM 12/14/12 05:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	And 5" Bore Space And makes tons of power (yes more than a predator) And is reliable 7503299-5in3.JPG (505 downloads)

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350284 12/14/12 05:41 PM 12/14/12 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston S sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut Drag Week Mod Champion S Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 9,225 Charleston	Quote: Its in stock is there a pump gas version? Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: sixpackgut] #1350285 12/14/12 05:43 PM 12/14/12 05:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	We can do PumpGas

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Adrielp] #1350286 12/14/12 05:51 PM 12/14/12 05:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing U unknown mopar
unknown mopar U Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 622 sing sing	Quote: Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together. Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion. PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own. Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!). Yes we need more pics, Im very interested on what you have there. Plus I don't care if it don't look like a 906 head,if it bolts to a mopar block and makes big HP thats all I care.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Adrielp] #1350287 12/14/12 06:06 PM 12/14/12 06:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada D Diablo super stock
Diablo super stock D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada	Quote: Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together. Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion. <b>PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own. </b> Mother Mopar herself had the 5-inch 99 stuff. Then Kaase and Goodwin advanced the heads from there. Goodwin will do the 5.2-5.3 versions of his "mopar" hemi heads also.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Diablo] #1350288 12/14/12 06:40 PM 12/14/12 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 511 florida dade C cesar perez mopar
cesar perez mopar C Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 511 florida dade	how many ci. - how much mulla

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350289 12/14/12 07:02 PM 12/14/12 07:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada D Diablo super stock
Diablo super stock D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada	Quote: Its in stock And 5" Bore Space And makes tons of power (yes more than a predator) And is reliable Looks familiar... Now you must give some more info 7503387-photo(8).JPG (496 downloads) Last edited by Diablo; 12/14/12 07:03 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: cesar perez] #1350290 12/14/12 07:10 PM 12/14/12 07:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	734" 50k

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350291 12/14/12 07:15 PM 12/14/12 07:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	That's not too bad if you say it real fast. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350292 12/14/12 07:49 PM 12/14/12 07:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA bigtimeauto Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto Trophy Winner Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,646 Plymouth Meeting, PA	Quote: 734" 50k does it have a 509 cam in it? BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: bigtimeauto] #1350293 12/14/12 08:06 PM 12/14/12 08:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma G Gary Robbins super stock
Gary Robbins super stock G Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma	All this talk about exotic/big chief style cylinder heads is interesting if your going outlaw/pm/ts/td racing...In small tire headsup only conventional heads are allowed and were not that far off on power from bbc & bbf...It really comes down to power management for us and i'm going to find out soon on my B1 original head 588 if i can compete with it!!! 7503484-fish&trailer025.jpg (566 downloads)

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350294 12/14/12 09:02 PM 12/14/12 09:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: 734" 50k Perhaps I'm just an idiot, but that sounds very reasonable. I don't have that much for a race motor or don't need one, but if I did, that's the ticket. It's a billet block right? So no water cooling except a little through the heads?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Gary Robbins] #1350295 12/14/12 09:18 PM 12/14/12 09:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas dannysbee master
dannysbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,160 Texas	Quote: All this talk about exotic/big chief style cylinder heads is interesting if your going outlaw/pm/ts/td racing...In small tire headsup only conventional heads are allowed and were not that far off on power from bbc & bbf...It really comes down to power management for us and i'm going to find out soon on my B1 original head 588 if i can compete with it!!! Really looks good Gary, hope it meets all your goals. Good luck with it. Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350296 12/14/12 09:57 PM 12/14/12 09:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA. pittsburghracer "Little"John
pittsburghracer "Little"John Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,186 PA.	Quote: Quote: 7 second Indy headed NA (no adder) engine. I sure would like to hear more about this ride. I race with Gene almost weekly and had to ask my son for more info. PLEASE don't hold me to everything here but Gene Nagy built and owns the car and races at PRP and several of the mopar races. Pretty sure its a Bruno trans. Tim Bowman built the engine and its a 600-13 Indy head, and app 622 cubic inches. He prefers 1/8 mile racing over 1/4 for ease of racing Pretty sure its runs 7.40's-7.50's in the 1/4 and 4.70's in the 1/8. Gene is strictly a NA guy and He took a second place this summer in our door wars heads-up class against all the nitrous, and turbo guys. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight but he has a lot of fun. 1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27 Livin and lovin life one day at a time

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: unknown] #1350297 12/15/12 02:43 AM 12/15/12 02:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas A Adrielp mopar
Adrielp mopar A Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 577 Arkansas	Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Some good info here for me the BB newbie. By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo? Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together. Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion. PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own. Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!). Yes we need more pics, Im very interested on what you have there. Plus I don't care if it don't look like a 906 head,if it bolts to a mopar block and makes big HP thats all I care. Follow the link for more pics: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129971&page=97 Scroll down to post #1448 Pics or the runner are available there. This model is a one cylinder ABS plastic model and the bolt pattern is definitely BBM. I've already bolted the head to our low deck 400 block and it fits perfect. Initial results have shown promise. As long as our results are correct, this first design with untouched ports and untouched chamber yielded the following results. Note, that the flow at 0.900 is probably less than actual, the turbulence at the pitot tube pressure inlet at this lift causes the differential pressure to fall significantly for some reason. Test used 4.6in bore, 30deg backcut, 45deg seat, 2.40in valve, 0.75 radius plate. 7503963-FlowCurve.jpg (239 downloads) Last edited by Adrielp; 12/15/12 02:46 AM. Adriel Paradise Substation Design Engineer III

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350298 12/15/12 08:24 AM 12/15/12 08:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Quote: Quote: 734" 50k Perhaps I'm just an idiot, but that sounds very reasonable. I don't have that much for a race motor or don't need one, but if I did, that's the ticket. It's a billet block right? So no water cooling except a little through the heads? Actually it's a cast aluminum water block. It CAN make 1600hp NA if asked to.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350299 12/15/12 09:41 AM 12/15/12 09:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,926 A shed in England Tig master
Tig master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,926 A shed in England	I've weighed up the pro's and cons of some heads. Our next build is a 600+ N/A pump gas motor to get a 3800lb car into the 8's. We reckon we need over 1100hp to do this The winner, for us, was the 600-13. Since we're building a new motor anyway, we will going for a 4.840 bore space and raised cam block. Some of the stuff I have now (572-13) will fit (intake, exhaust). This will keep the cost down a little and the old motor will be a straight swap spare. Whilst flow numbers aren't everything, for comparison, there are a few reports of over 500cfm with these heads. Not sure at what lift though '74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Tig] #1350300 12/15/12 10:50 AM 12/15/12 10:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa D demongup mopar
demongup mopar D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa	I am in the middle of building my first B1 combo. I will be able to give a good compassion to the -1 heads. I currently run a 528 ci ,mega block,and nothing off the shelf rotating parts.I am using the same cam, crank ,compression ration..etc .I'm changing the heads ,intake and headers. When I'm done in the next 12-16 weeks I will give some info up

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: demongup] #1350301 12/15/12 11:23 AM 12/15/12 11:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: I am in the middle of building my first B1 combo. I will be able to give a good compassion to the -1 heads. I currently run a 528 ci ,mega block,and nothing off the shelf rotating parts.I am using the same cam, crank ,compression ration..etc .I'm changing the heads ,intake and headers. When I'm done in the next 12-16 weeks I will give some info up I really think you're going to need a B1 specific cam, or you won't see the real potentail of the heads.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350302 12/15/12 11:36 AM 12/15/12 11:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa D demongup mopar
demongup mopar D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa	u mean my purple shaft wont work...lol I want to use the same stuff for an apples to apples comparison , my parts are good and expensive to replace . I have allot of work and tuning to do and want to see where I need to make changes based off my current set up. If it makes sense to u I am increasing the rocker ratio .

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: demongup] #1350303 12/15/12 11:52 AM 12/15/12 11:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma G Gary Robbins super stock
Gary Robbins super stock G Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma	Quote: I am in the middle of building my first B1 combo. I will be able to give a good compassion to the -1 heads. I currently run a 528 ci ,mega block,and nothing off the shelf rotating parts.I am using the same cam, crank ,compression ration..etc .I'm changing the heads ,intake and headers. When I'm done in the next 12-16 weeks I will give some info up Original-M/C-PSO ?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350304 12/15/12 12:11 PM 12/15/12 12:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa D demongup mopar
demongup mopar D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 414 pa	B1 originals . I have compared them to the pso . It would take allot of work to fit the cast intake to those. I have had the heads cnc'd and did a lay over onto the pso and there sure is allot of material available� on the pso . ....one day .

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: demongup] #1350305 12/15/12 12:25 PM 12/15/12 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma G Gary Robbins super stock
Gary Robbins super stock G Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 803 Idabel,Oklahoma	Quote: B1 originals . I have compared them to the pso . It would take allot of work to fit the cast intake to those. I have had the heads cnc'd and did a lay over onto the pso and there sure is allot of material available� on the pso . ....one day . Kool,will be a great comparison!!!! My lowdeck -1 540 makes 900ish... The RB B1 original 588 made 1050ish with a little more comp.& cam and surprisingly on 500rpm difference in peak power.. Amen on the PSO'S...I've never ran the top/best heads and PSO'S will be my next head!!!

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: demongup] #1350306 12/15/12 02:29 PM 12/15/12 02:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas	Josh do tell who is making the CAST aluminum block? Asssuming this is a 5.0 or better BS block? Be nice if they made a 4.9 bore space piece so one could use up the avaiable pro stock heads out there that are plentuful. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350307 12/15/12 03:09 PM 12/15/12 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 345 iowa wesw enthusiast
wesw enthusiast Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 345 iowa	Quote: Its in stock hi josh, how much and whats the ci of it ? thanks wes 598 ci predator

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: wesw] #1350308 12/15/12 03:16 PM 12/15/12 03:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada D Diablo super stock
Diablo super stock D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,106 Quebec, Canada	Quote: Quote: Its in stock hi josh, how much and whats the ci of it ? thanks wes Read up a bit and you will find its a 734ci and wants 50K And most likely its a Donovan Block.... or maybe one of Darts newer Blank 5 inch blocks. Ours in a Donovan but some modifications had to be made for the outside heads bolts. Last edited by Diablo; 12/15/12 03:17 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Diablo] #1350309 12/15/12 05:07 PM 12/15/12 05:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	The block is originally a Titan, and we have a couple. We may be pouring more soon.......

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350310 12/15/12 08:30 PM 12/15/12 08:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan B1Fish540 master
B1Fish540 master Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan	i think a 604 w/B1s would make a good street engine..i would use a purple shaft cam and have the best of both worlds...

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: B1Fish540] #1350311 12/16/12 03:52 PM 12/16/12 03:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart I Live Here
gregsdart I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Quote: i think a 604 w/B1s would make a good street engine..i would use a purple shaft cam and have the best of both worlds... Step up to the 650 Comp flat tappet and I bet you would have a winner My uneducated , untried recipe; 604 with B1 heads, Comp 650 cam, Titanium intake valves in 2.3 diameter, 1.6 rockers, tunnelram with twin 750 carbs. 2 1/8 headers 35 inch long, 4 inch collecters. Use a small combustion chamber with a big dish piston for 11/1 compression? Last edited by gregsdart; 12/16/12 03:56 PM.

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: gregsdart] #1350312 12/16/12 08:06 PM 12/16/12 08:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan B1Fish540 master
B1Fish540 master Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan	Quote: Quote: i think a 604 w/B1s would make a good street engine..i would use a purple shaft cam and have the best of both worlds... Step up to the 650 Comp flat tappet and I bet you would have a winner My uneducated , untried recipe; 604 with B1 heads, Comp 650 cam, Titanium intake valves in 2.3 diameter, 1.6 rockers, tunnelram with twin 750 carbs. 2 1/8 headers 35 inch long, 4 inch collecters. Use a small combustion chamber with a big dish piston for 11/1 compression? Yes! Greg! and this would go in a 63 Dodge Polara...vintage S/S clone

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: B1Fish540] #1350313 12/17/12 04:10 PM 12/17/12 04:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta. go green super stock
go green super stock Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta.	Big inch nitrous engines days are numbered in heads up racing , a turbo small block will eat most 844cid nitrous cars at the same weight . (And be easier to maintain and cost less . ) Just look at the 2012 SCSN pro street race . Last edited by go green; 12/17/12 04:12 PM. 6.50 @ 226 MPH 4.25 @ 186 MPH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX86DHGKBo0

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: go green] #1350314 12/17/12 05:00 PM 12/17/12 05:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Mmmmm I'm not so sure. In Vegas I agree. But nitrous cars are really playing ball in x275 and other classes. 4.23 for hustille if I got the name right on a 315

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: joshking440] #1350315 12/17/12 06:25 PM 12/17/12 06:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 105 ontario Clockwork member
Clockwork member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 105 ontario	I liked the b-1 heads but they just didn't make enough power to go TS racing naturally aspirated. Anyone have any used Predator heads for sale.. Last edited by Clockwork; 12/17/12 06:26 PM. 572ci B1 7.90 172MPH

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Clockwork] #1350316 12/17/12 06:45 PM 12/17/12 06:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City C camastomcat top fuel
camastomcat top fuel C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,128 Salt Lake City	Quote: I liked the b-1 heads but they just didn't make enough power to go TS racing naturally aspirated. Anyone have any used Predator heads for sale.. How fast do you need to be in T/S? And at what weight?

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: camastomcat] #1350317 12/17/12 11:55 PM 12/17/12 11:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 105 ontario Clockwork member
Clockwork member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 105 ontario	7.40-50 I am 2650lbs. Just can`t get there with my B1 stuff. 572ci B1 7.90 172MPH

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Clockwork] #1350318 12/18/12 02:08 AM 12/18/12 02:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada E Edge mopar
Edge mopar E Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 698 Alberta Canada	7.90 was with spray I am assuming ? What will the car run N/A ? 76 Duster work in progress

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Edge] #1350319 12/18/12 05:58 PM 12/18/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 51 Vacaville, Ca K Kenny705K member
Kenny705K member K Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 51 Vacaville, Ca	Quote: 7.90 was with spray I am assuming ? What will the car run N/A ? I would assume that's N/A......Our 572 B1 at 2,500 pounds has run 7.68 with a Lenco, 7.90's with a glide

Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers?? [Re: Kenny705K] #1350320 12/19/12 01:45 AM 12/19/12 01:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 456 corpus christi tex C Cheatham mopar
Cheatham mopar C Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 456 corpus christi tex	Santa arrived a week early today i got my B1s thnx too Camastomcat they are very impressive head

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