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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350242
12/13/12 04:39 PM
12/13/12 04:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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I think the bottom line is that we're at a severe disadvantage simply because of the small bore spacing. None of the current head offerings even come remotely close to what the competition has available off the shelf.
Without a 5" bore space block and heads to match we're just going through the motions. you can only get just so much valve in a 4.8" bore space chamber and at a max 4.560 bore in most cases, we aren't even close to having a head with a better runner design and valvetrain to match.
Without power adders there's just so much you can do. I hate to put it that way but that's the way it is.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: joshking440]
#1350243
12/13/12 04:41 PM
12/13/12 04:41 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Wise first asked why there were not more B1's out there on big strokers.
MOST Mopar guys are going to build the most for the least that they can. The easy route is what is most available, what their friends run and know, and the Cheapest. So..stock block, cheapo China rotating kit, Eddys or a discounted Indy kit.
Yep...they blow them up by splitting stock blocks--then they spend more on stock block band aids ( I am not a fan--straight stocker with some studs or Move up to an aftermarket block) In the end most racers finally buy an aftermarket block after they have ruined every stocker they had in the barn--then they use the heads they HAVE already so you see Eddys on all kinds of big strokers. B1's with New pistons, new headers, etc never enter their minds--ever! Just my two cents worth....
Mopar Guys that run with the big dogs ( the very few ) Really have to pay the "Mopar Tax" to keep up with a big inch Chevy. Its a pity but just the way it is.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Mopar-Al]
#1350244
12/13/12 04:43 PM
12/13/12 04:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
You had a couple of options for B1 heads. B1BS and B1 originals. I wonder how well a BS head works when done all out?
IMO, the BS head is no better than a comparably ported RPM head. I have a nice set that flow very comparable to a CNC'd RPM head. The exhaust on the BS head does flow better than a RPM though. But, I do believe the BS head has a larger intake port volume than the RPM. Chamber design is superior with the BS also.
With that said, I see no real reason to buy a BS head, when compared to a RPM. They take special rockers, exhaust port is raised, on and on. Id go -1s/SRs at that point, depending on intended combination.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350245
12/13/12 04:45 PM
12/13/12 04:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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Al yes I do. A lot of people don't live in the populated Areas that' will have the services available to fab up a set of headers. My guess in my area a custom set would run 2000 plus. I don't know of any starving artists in this area. If having an off the shelf header was not important, do you think Indy would have put the money in tooling and patterns to do the EZ's?
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Von]
#1350247
12/13/12 05:05 PM
12/13/12 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
Mopar-Al
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
You had a couple of options for B1 heads. B1BS and B1 originals. I wonder how well a BS head works when done all out?
IMO, the BS head is no better than a comparably ported RPM head. I have a nice set that flow very comparable to a CNC'd RPM head. The exhaust on the BS head does flow better than a RPM though. But, I do believe the BS head has a larger intake port volume than the RPM. Chamber design is superior with the BS also.
With that said, I see no real reason to buy a BS head, when compared to a RPM. They take special rockers, exhaust port is raised, on and on. Id go -1s/SRs at that point, depending on intended combination.
Von, I had thought the BS head took the same rocker gear as the 906. That is why they are the Budget head. Also made in the USA. Eddy heads port to a max wedge size? I know on an eddy head, when you shave the intake face, you have little room for the valve cover/ intake fit. And it gets close for the vc bolts.
We have had these options for years actually. I to have Indy stuff here as well. I just wanted to stand up and try the B1. It has been around for so long and I always see Indy and Eddy. You will not see me knocking Indy. I am enjoying the B1's and liking them.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Mopar-Al]
#1350248
12/13/12 06:07 PM
12/13/12 06:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
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This reminds me of something another Wize man one told me... A sledgehammer is 'old technology' too....but in the right hands it's still pretty [Email]d@mn[/Email] effective!!!  Somebody just scale up a w8 to fit a big block so I can get a nice big 2.400 intake valve in there and I'll buy a new set of slugs and be done with it.  @pittsburgracer Need more pics of that altered wheelbase 'mini Charger''...too cool It'd be cool if there was a scaled down ( ~7/8 scale) 68-70 Charger body that would fit on about a 105" wb tube chassis....now THAT would be cool 
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/13/12 06:12 PM.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350249
12/13/12 06:10 PM
12/13/12 06:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 614
new jersey
gillman34
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 614
new jersey
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Quote:
Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes.
I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I dont have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal.
As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install.
As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there.
Just my
Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads?
This is the first time I'm hearing about this.
Thanks
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: cesar perez]
#1350252
12/13/12 07:49 PM
12/13/12 07:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
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Quote:
the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13 
 I look at how long the valve is. This is the best indicator how much power a head will produce. B1s have the longer valve, but the rare Brewer head has even longer valves and is superior to the Original B1 by 20 or 30 cfm. The 440-1 is good for a stock valve location and size head, but falls short of the B1...the 572-13 Indy just has'nt produced the power it should... maybe the valve length is to blame? 
On costs, the 540" B1 in the Cuda costs about 13K to have built..that included dyno time. And the motor was "all new", no old factory parts..,it was built by Schofield Machine in Clinton, MO
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: cesar perez]
#1350253
12/13/12 08:03 PM
12/13/12 08:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
unknown
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
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Quote:
the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13
Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: unknown]
#1350254
12/13/12 08:06 PM
12/13/12 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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Steve, I sent you a PM. I will reword what I typed before but stand by my statements on the reliability. Engine killing part was not fair and I apologize for that. Had things been caught earlier it that would not likely have been the result. Allthe issue were oiling problems, possibly just a result of something causing a problem with the lifter position in it's bore or a flaw in the available blocks, but the result in all cases was the same. Part of the reliability issues are likely due to the power level of the engines to begin with and probably what the people using them are trying to do. But for me a lowly bracket and super class guy reliability is as important as power. I want power but HAVE to have reliability first and foremost. I have an engine that makes decent power but I dont think I would want to try and run that 99 in Super Gas.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: unknown]
#1350255
12/13/12 09:27 PM
12/13/12 09:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 341
Highland beach Fl
poisondart2
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 341
Highland beach Fl
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Quote:
Quote:
the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13
Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads.
I have never seen a set on a car. Do you have them and if so tell us about them 
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: poisondart2]
#1350256
12/13/12 09:32 PM
12/13/12 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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Well not going ot be a fair comparison as the 600-13 is for a different bore space block is it not?? Thought they were only for the 4.84 block, so that would be a BIG advantage in itself.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350257
12/13/12 09:42 PM
12/13/12 09:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 341
Highland beach Fl
poisondart2
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 341
Highland beach Fl
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Quote:
Well not going ot be a fair comparison as the 600-13 is for a different bore space block is it not?? Thought they were only for the 4.84 block, so that would be a BIG advantage in itself.
Thanks Al guess that is why I have never seen a set on a car
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: gillman34]
#1350258
12/13/12 10:09 PM
12/13/12 10:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes.
I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal.
As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install.
As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there.
Just my
Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads?
This is the first time I'm hearing about this.
Thanks
As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of..
However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek??
Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up??
If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit..
Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too. 
I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO..
That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators.. 
Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with..
Chris... 
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: poisondart2]
#1350259
12/13/12 10:12 PM
12/13/12 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
unknown
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
the b1 originals will put a wippin on any of the indy heads including 572-13
Really? I would love to see the B1 originals go head to head against Indy's 60013X heads.
I have never seen a set on a car. Do you have them and if so tell us about them [/quote No I do not have them,Years ago I was on a Hemi kick and spent my money on Hemi parts.Looking back I kind of wish I would have bought the wedge stuff. Yes the 60013x heads are for 4.84 BS blocks,not a big deal, I need to buy a race block any way.The cars that I did see run with those heads seam to run very well.Back in the day, the Mopar Mania gang ran the Indy stuff.The guys that I talk to claim those heads flow 470+ cfm with the 2.450 intake valve. So I would say the 600-13x heads would put a whiping on the B1 originals.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: unknown]
#1350260
12/13/12 11:03 PM
12/13/12 11:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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I have been racing B1 originals for 12 years now with good results. I've seen a few 600-13's on 655's and they weren't very impressive for the cost. Sure they might make slightly more power than B1 originals, but I would bet B1/Mc's would keep up with them on a 655, although they are not available for a 4.84 bore center block. Now for the Predators....having raced several B1 combos...and even though my Predator combo hasn't transfered the type of power I feel in my pants with it...I will get that baby to fly when I'm done working out the combo. There is no comparison in the power I feel now versus the power in the B1 deal. Not knocking the B1, just pointing out the difference. And the fastest 655 600-13 motor I've witnessed went 7.60's in a pro stock type car that weighed around 2350#'s. That was right before it granaded. I was running 8.30's in my 572 B1 Original 1850# car at the same track. I'm pretty sure my Predator 604 deal will run in the low 7.0's at that track when I get it figured out. And the only reason people might be having problems with the Predatos is, they are new and very few people have them, so just like when the B1's first came out, we are still figuring them out. That is unless you want to call someone like Steve Gill or Ceralli's in NJ. They have it figured out. Oh.....and boatracer 572, he has it figured out. I'm sure others do to....but those are the ones I know unless you want to turbo them....then get ahold of Gogreen!!! Oh, and I'll be building another Predator as soon as I can afford it. Wheatcraft is another one, sorry Chris.
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