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If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."

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If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."

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That quote was made by someone that does not understand how products are designed.

Adding $20 to the cost of each vehicle is a HUGE amount of money when you are talking about 100,000 or more units being made in the course of a year. That $2 million dollars would go right to the bottom line, so of course they have a motivation not to.

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And as an engineer (or a knowledgable consumer) one might propose that the consumer would be willing to pay a few dollars more for a demonstratably-superior product, but the decision is still NO. The high-volume manufacturing world just does not work that way!

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If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."

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That quote was made by someone that does not understand how products are designed.

Adding $20 to the cost of each vehicle is a HUGE amount of money when you are talking about 100,000 or more units being made in the course of a year. That $2 million dollars would go right to the bottom line, so of course they have a motivation not to.

All manufacturers play the game of minimizing the cost while still meeting requirements automotive or otherwise. If an engineer can meet requirements with a less costly part he is not going to spec one that costs more even if it was better or he won't have a job for long.

So if the requirement is 300 HP or the MPG is 25 and those requirements can be met with a cheaper filter then that is what is used even though a more costly part may have given you 320 HP and 30 mpg.

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Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave

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I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV

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My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

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Did you also have the airbox in place with the K&N filter? This could have had more to do with the increased power instead of the filter.

I have had some motorcycles that would respond with a substantial increase in power when the airbox is opened up.

Roger

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Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave

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I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV

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Sorry John, that was a long time ago ( back then I spent more time on the TDR than I do on Moparts now! ) What I CAN tell you from memory is that the test I saw was for the drop-in replacement K&N vs. the stock set-up so I suspect your 15hp came from the removal of the airbox.

After spending significant time researching the subject and some very passionate arguments from both sides, I came away with the feeling that the K&N offers little to no performance advantage and that it likely has inferior filtration (especially on a turbocharged engine). Most of the other TDR members came to the same conclusion and went with what is now referred to as the BHAF (Big Honkin Air Filter) which is a large cylindrical paper filter.

People can run whatever they like, but at $10k a pop, I didn't feel like experimenting with my Cumminses.


Dave