Moparts

Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters?

Posted By: rjones

Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 01:15 PM

Has anyone taken a K&N and a stock air filter of similar sizes to the track or dyno and compared them to see if the K&N really does give a performance improvement?

Thanks,

Roger
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 03:33 PM

Only time I did was with a buddy's car. 6-71 blown Pontiac 400, at that time it was making something like 660Hp at the wheels.

He had 2 1050 carbs and some small air cleaners, only 7x3. We pulled off the filter elements and it only picked up about 7hp with no filters at all. We thought that was pretty good considering the airflow requirements, and how small the filters were.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 04:54 PM

No they do not flow any better than a "proper" sized paper element. It was on a hotrod TV show. I also read it in one of the car mags. From my expierence pretty much any car will run better w/ just a base plate, just depends on if you want to run w/o a filter at the track.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 04:58 PM

good reading here
http://mymiata.paladinmicro.com/K&NComments.htm

best line in the artical is "Manufacturers spend vast amounts of money playing the horsepower game, while meeting CAFE requirements. If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 06:14 PM

I did a road test (unintentionally) using a K&N. 1200 miles each way, same roads. Thought that I was not getting the milage I should be with my Dakota but didn't have time to stop or check things out on the way due to death in family. While in Dallas there was some time so I remove the slightly oversized K7N and installed the OEM type paper air filter. Can't quote numbers now but I do remember I used equivalant to a tank of fuel less on the homeward trip using the Paper element.
On another note some dirt friends did some filter testing on a dyno and found that a paper with the K&N flow top gave the best over the paper with a seal top or K&N either way. Both with precleaners.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 06:37 PM

Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave
Posted By: dgc333

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 07:33 PM

Quote:

If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."



That quote was made by someone that does not understand how products are designed.

Adding $20 to the cost of each vehicle is a HUGE amount of money when you are talking about 100,000 or more units being made in the course of a year. That $2 million dollars would go right to the bottom line, so of course they have a motivation not to.

All manufacturers play the game of minimizing the cost while still meeting requirements automotive or otherwise. If an engineer can meet requirements with a less costly part he is not going to spec one that costs more even if it was better or he won't have a job for long.

So if the requirement is 300 HP or the MPG is 25 and those requirements can be met with a cheaper filter then that is what is used even though a more costly part may have given you 320 HP and 30 mpg.

Now for a personal experience. I used to race dirt bikes back in the 70's. They all came from the factory with a paper air filter back then. Quite often on a 100 mile eduro in dusty conditions I would have to stop and knock the dirt off the paper filter because it would be plugged to the point of impacting the engine. I would also find a fine coating of dust down stream from the filter after one of these type outings. When the oiled foam filters started becoming availble I switched. I never had a filter plug up on a ride after that and down stream I never had the fine layer of dust after the switch either.
Posted By: IronWolf

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 08:08 PM

Yes, I did, an NO, it did NOT make a difference. Therefore K&N claims are BS , in my case anyhoo.

In fact running with/without an air filter did not make a difference . either.

You are not the first one to question the vendor's veracity, by the way !
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 08:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."



That quote was made by someone that does not understand how products are designed.

Adding $20 to the cost of each vehicle is a HUGE amount of money when you are talking about 100,000 or more units being made in the course of a year. That $2 million dollars would go right to the bottom line, so of course they have a motivation not to.






And as an engineer (or a knowledgable consumer) one might propose that the consumer would be willing to pay a few dollars more for a demonstratably-superior product, but the decision is still NO. The high-volume manufacturing world just does not work that way!
Posted By: IronWolf

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 08:20 PM

Correct, that's why the auto manufacturers give us $ 2 batteries and $ 4 dollar tires.

Let me weep while they go out of business . How about laying off useless executives (who keep their cakewalk jobs for 30 years despite dismal results) and cutting back on dividends ???
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/29/08 11:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If spending $20 more per vehicle would improve horsepower and efficiency they would do it--they have no motivation not to."



That quote was made by someone that does not understand how products are designed.

Adding $20 to the cost of each vehicle is a HUGE amount of money when you are talking about 100,000 or more units being made in the course of a year. That $2 million dollars would go right to the bottom line, so of course they have a motivation not to.

All manufacturers play the game of minimizing the cost while still meeting requirements automotive or otherwise. If an engineer can meet requirements with a less costly part he is not going to spec one that costs more even if it was better or he won't have a job for long.

So if the requirement is 300 HP or the MPG is 25 and those requirements can be met with a cheaper filter then that is what is used even though a more costly part may have given you 320 HP and 30 mpg.



I think you are wrong if they could sqeak out an additional 2-3 mpg and pickup an extra 5-10 ponies they would spend the extra $20...not that it would cost them anything, that would be past to the customer. I've bought and been given K&N's for my vehicles. I saw zero perfomance gains and maybe had slighty worse milage. That said I do like the idea of the K&N flow-thru lid.
Posted By: dgc333

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 12:01 AM

Having been an engineer for the past 30+ years, its always about the bucks. Reduced costs mean more profits or reduced sale price which means more market share and more profits.

Even changes to improve quality have to be justified with a cost savings (i.e., reduced scrap, rework, warranty claims, increased market share, etc).

The marketeers will define and justify horsepower and economy requirements and the engineers have to design to those goals at the lowest cost possible.

FWIW, I have since they became readily available back in the early 80's used an oiled foam or an oiled gauze filter in all my vehicles. Not because of a performance or economy improvement (but that is well come if its realized) but because its a great cost savings over the life of the car. I typically keep my daily drivers for 250,000 - 300,000 miles and an $8 filter every 10k miles adds up. Buy the K&N or other washable brand once for $40 and its paid for in the first 1 1/2 over ownership.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 12:20 AM

Quote:

Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave



I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV
Posted By: rjones

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 03:12 AM

This has been a fun thread. I have a wideband O2 on the car and I notice that when I am running the engine on the fast idle cam at about 1500 rpm the fuel mixture will richen about .2 when it has the air filter on it. This made me think the stock air filter might be restrictive and this is why I posted the question about the K&N. I was thinking if it was less restrictive I might pick up some power with the K&N. But now I don't think the K&N will help. I could just make some passes without any filter and this would give me a clue as to whether the air filter is a restriction.

Thanks,

Roger
Posted By: rjones

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 03:21 AM

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

Did you also have the airbox in place with the K&N filter? This could have had more to do with the increased power instead of the filter.

I have had some motorcycles that would respond with a substantial increase in power when the airbox is opened up.

Roger
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 03:27 AM

Theres no question that a K&N type filter will out-flow a paper element per square inch of material. The question is: how much flow is required by the engine and is there enough filter area to satisfy that need. If you are using a 3" tall x 14" diameter open element paper filter. You probobly have plenty of airflow capability to satisfy your motor. Adding a K&N would be pointless in most cases, It's like pouring 8 gallons of water into a 5 gallon bucket.
Posted By: earlybee

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 03:38 AM

Ever been to a concrete batch plant? Cement powder dust is around 1-3 microns. No where on the plant/property or in the mixer trucks or f/end loaders, are K-N filters used. They don,t work in this environment, only paper filters are used. K-N filters have to use oil to catch dust, and oil migrates with heat/gravity. Dry on top, wet on the bottom. The reason K-N flows almost as much air as no filter, is because its a bugcatcher, not a air filter. I rank K-N air filters right up there with Fram oil filters. Thats my
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 03:43 AM

If K&N filters made that big of a difference, the OEM would be using them. If they were buying them in bulk for their production cars, they could probably get them for $20 or less a pop. And they could easily tack that extra $10-20 onto the vehicle cost for the consumer without them even noticing.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 01:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.



Did you also have the airbox in place with the K&N filter? This could have had more to do with the increased power instead of the filter.

I have had some motorcycles that would respond with a substantial increase in power when the airbox is opened up.

Roger



No roger I didn't have the air box in place and I can't remember if this was before or after i added extra holes in the air box to get more air in it that the one hole the factory had .

your motorcycle tests tells me the air box is too small and causing a restriction in total airflow , packaing issue by the designers ...

I'm not saying that all the claims by K+N are true or false , just relating my story from what I actually did .
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 02:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave



I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV



Sorry John, that was a long time ago ( back then I spent more time on the TDR than I do on Moparts now! ) What I CAN tell you from memory is that the test I saw was for the drop-in replacement K&N vs. the stock set-up so I suspect your 15hp came from the removal of the airbox.

After spending significant time researching the subject and some very passionate arguments from both sides, I came away with the feeling that the K&N offers little to no performance advantage and that it likely has inferior filtration (especially on a turbocharged engine). Most of the other TDR members came to the same conclusion and went with what is now referred to as the BHAF (Big Honkin Air Filter) which is a large cylindrical paper filter.

People can run whatever they like, but at $10k a pop, I didn't feel like experimenting with my Cumminses.


Dave
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 02:57 PM

Quote:

I have had some motorcycles that would respond with a substantial increase in power when the airbox is opened up.

Roger



Yep, motorcycling 101: open up the airbox, high flow pipe and silencer and rejet = more power

Many factory bikes (particularly street bikes, dual sports and enduros) are jetted way lean from the factory and corked up for emmissions reasons.

Dave
Posted By: None2Slow

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 04:03 PM

Quote:

Not because of a performance or economy improvement (but that is well come if its realized) but because its a great cost savings over the life of the car. I typically keep my daily drivers for 250,000 - 300,000 miles and an $8 filter every 10k miles adds up. Buy the K&N or other washable brand once for $40 and its paid for in the first 1 1/2 over ownership.





This is the same reason that I use them in all my cars. Plus I also have a Supercharged Thunderbird and did notice an improvement with the K&N cone over the stock setup. Then again, we are talking about a small stock box to begin with.
Posted By: 360view

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 04:07 PM

here the best independent test of air filter designs, done by volunteers like yourselves who pooled their money:

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

note how the aftermarket gauze or foam filters are 1-3 inches of water less restrictive when brand new, but clogged up much faster than a good paper filter with many pleats and lots of surface area

Paper and cotton gauze are both cellulose.
Do you realize you can clean a conventional paper air filter with the right detergents and procedure?
(but is it worth your time at a reasonable $/hr ?)

here's my personal test of a KN drop in years ago:

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:12:52 -0500
>Subject: KN/Mopar paper/no air filter/ Quarter mile tests
>
>I was curious as to whether the KN air filter element in
the factory Ram
>air filter housing I have been using for 3 years was truly
less
>restrictive than the paper filter elements.

>Back on RTML there was a
>discussion about whether re-useable filters really filtered
the finest
>dust particles as well as paper ones do.
>
>One RTML reader said his construction company tested
re-useable filters
>and did spectrograhic oil analyis to test for dirt passing
through the
>filters. When the silica levels in the oil went up - the
construction
>company went back to paper filters - and the silica levels
in the oil went
>back down. I can't vouch for this alleged test - but the
story worried
>me.
>
>I had the afternoon free and I decided to test the
acceleration question
>myself. I went to the local Dodge dealer (the same one who
sold me a KN drop in element) and bought a $14 Mopar air filter. It is white
paper, has many
>more pleats than the KN, and bears part number 53004383.
Below the part
>number is printed "Made in Canada" and 38682 and then 05/99
is stamped in
>different ink. The rubber gasket on this paper filter seems
to be slightly
>thicker and it takes a little more effort to clamp down the
top cover on it than the KN.
>
>I went to my home-made quarter mile on Highway 64 over the
Jordan Lake causeway. Remember this may be a little more than a true
measured quartermile, is 0.4% grade uphill, and I am timing
with a stopwatch. I do a soft start with my foot off the
pedal. The 235/85R16 tires with 65 psi never broke
loose or smoked in these tests. Gasoline was 87 octane.
>
>Yesterday (a humid 95F day) With KN element, 1/2 tank of
gas I ran:
>18.75
>18.72
>
>This afternoon ( a humid 95F day) with KN, 3/16 tank of gas
I ran:
>18.81
>18.75
>Average= 18.78
>
>Both yesterday & today with the KN there was mild pinging
when rpms went
>+3750, and then a short burst of rapid 'clacks' when the
auto trans made
>its shifts at 4900 rpm. I have found from past driving that
the pinging
>goes away if I use above 90 octane.
>
>Both yesterday and today there was a KN element in the air
filter housing
>that had been cleaned approximately 3000 miles ago. When I
took it out
>today it showed no signs of visible dirt and was dark red
in color. I am
>using the stock factory air filter housing, with the
plastic cold air tube
>going over to the passenger fender wall.
>
>With the 53004383 Mopar paper filter, 3/16 tank of gas I
ran:
>
>18.75
>18.85
>Average= 18.80
>
>I then took the Mopar filter out and re-assembled the air
filter housing
>with no air filter inside. Everything else was the same -
the plastic
>cold air tube was still pulling air from the fender and the
top of the
>housing was clamped on.
>
>With NO FILTER element, 3/16 tank of gas I ran:
>18.72
>18.68
>Average= 18.70
>
>During these two runs without any air filter it seemed to
me that the
>pinging above 3750 rpm was still mild, but a little louder
and more
>frequent. The noise of the engine seemed slightly louder
without an air
>filter.
>
>I put the Mopar paper filter in and drove the truck home.
I could not
>feel any difference versus the KN filter.

{if I were to run this test again I would use two trucks making the runs together but where the filters were switched at each run, and would probably time 40 to 70 mph accelerations in 3rd gear up a 6% grade hill with 1000 lb loads in the beds for better and more 'real world' relevance}
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 04:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave



I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV



Sorry John, that was a long time ago ( back then I spent more time on the TDR than I do on Moparts now! ) What I CAN tell you from memory is that the test I saw was for the drop-in replacement K&N vs. the stock set-up so I suspect your 15hp came from the removal of the airbox.

After spending significant time researching the subject and some very passionate arguments from both sides, I came away with the feeling that the K&N offers little to no performance advantage and that it likely has inferior filtration (especially on a turbocharged engine). Most of the other TDR members came to the same conclusion and went with what is now referred to as the BHAF (Big Honkin Air Filter) which is a large cylindrical paper filter.

People can run whatever they like, but at $10k a pop, I didn't feel like experimenting with my Cumminses.


Dave



I was on the TDR alot back then also , I ran the BHAF for a while and I know have a AFE II on it , run the stock box in the winter .
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 09/30/08 04:28 PM

Quote:


I was on the TDR alot back then also , I ran the BHAF for a while and I know have a AFE II on it , run the stock box in the winter .



Just out of curiousity, what was your username there?


Dave
Posted By: Grizzly

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? - 10/01/08 02:40 AM

Quote:

Correct, that's why the auto manufacturers give us $ 2 batteries and $ 4 dollar tires.

Let me weep while they go out of business . How about laying off useless executives (who keep their cakewalk jobs for 30 years despite dismal results) and cutting back on dividends ???



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