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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1084452
10/06/11 02:30 PM
10/06/11 02:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
Hotchkis
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
I looked and could not find the chart I saw. It showed the tall spindles toe change almost identical to the short one. I do agree camber change will change toe. Camber will change unless both upper and lower control arms are the same length. That's not going to happen.
Doug
Caster change in bump and rebound has a large effect on bump steer too. Looking at the side of the spindle in bump and rebound, the spindle rotates forward and back. That moves the lower tie rod end up and down and changes bump steer.
A lot of that comes from the side angle of the upper control that is made for anti dive. That's why Hotchkis relocated the upper control arms on thier B/E body arms to take some anti dive out (not fully remove) and reduce bump steer.
Steve’s right. We did change the location of the upper control arm pivot point for anti-dive and bump steer correction. Toe change during suspension compression and rebound makes a car less fun to drive hard and uncontrollable understeer when the toe change is severe enough.
We put this cool little video about the bump steer change with the Hotchkis TVS for the B and E bodies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxPWrdPlt0
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: AndyF]
#1084453
10/07/11 11:09 AM
10/07/11 11:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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Thanks for the heads up on the book, I have it pre-ordered. Since you have a 65 also, I'm looking forward to what you have written. Andy, you, Hotchkis, Firm Feel and Herr Ehrenberg kick butt!
Last edited by CKessel; 10/07/11 11:10 AM.
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: AndyF]
#1084455
10/09/11 02:09 AM
10/09/11 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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Not to change the subject, but since we are talking front end stuff, I was wondering when M.A. and Richard are going to update the article on the lower control arms that was run several issues ago. The suspense in waiting for the rest of the story is hard to take.
Carl Kessel
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: 1970440RT]
#1084456
10/17/11 03:01 PM
10/17/11 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 135
Pittsburgh, PA
1970440RT
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 135
Pittsburgh, PA
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Sorry for the delay. I am still having the front brake performance issue. The latest thing I did was install new s.s. brake lines throughout, including a new distribution block. I rebled the master twice and the system three times, with vaccuum and pedal pressure. With the new master cylinder at a 7/8" bore, I can feel the longer stroke on the pedal but the brakes don't catch until near the bottom of the stroke. If I was new to the situation, I would guess that the system still has air in it somewhere but when I bleed, I get all fluid. Also, my bleeders are all located correctly at the top of the calipers. At this point, I am so frustrated that I can't think straight. What the heck am I missing here? No matter how I adjust the Wilwood prop valve, the rears always lock up in a panic stop. I cant get the fronts to lock up at all. This front brake performance issue has been the same since I first installed the conversion. I have changed the master cyl twice, lines, calipers twice, dist. block, and added a Wilwood prop valve. The only thing I haven't touched are the rear brakes because they were done a year and a half ago. 
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: cruzin]
#1084461
10/17/11 10:11 PM
10/17/11 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 135
Pittsburgh, PA
1970440RT
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 135
Pittsburgh, PA
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just got in from the garage,
1. I isolated the master with plugs - rock hard pedal with engine running. Master cylinder and booster operating correctly.
2. blocked front brakes with a plug, had pressure to rears only. After bleeding rears, with engine on, good brake pedal. Rears OK
3. Reconnected front brake line to master, spongy pedal with engine running. Bled fronts, both calipers. Again spongy pedal with engine running. Rebled fronts, same spongy pedal.
All signs point to air in the front lines somewhere, can't find it. When bleeding calipers, get clear fuid - no bubbles. brand new brake hoses - rubber and stainless.
Did I possibly get a bad distribution block? can they trap air?
BTW: Cruzin, I got the prop valve from Mancini #WIL260-8419. I have the stock rear wheel cylinders.
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: 1970440RT]
#1084462
10/17/11 11:27 PM
10/17/11 11:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Just for fun, set the emergency brake then retest the foot brake. If the pedal firms up then your rear brake adjustment need tightening up.
It's also possible the calipers are mismounted. Some calipers do not take well to being swapped side for side to mount them on the other side of the spindle. Found that out on my 65 Cuda when I added discs.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: 1970440RT]
#1084463
10/18/11 12:33 AM
10/18/11 12:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Progress  . loosen the RF bleeder screw then tighten it finger tight just enough so it's shut off & have a helper jump on the pedal 4 times and with perfect timing you with your fingers open the bleeder as he's starting the 4th stomp & he holds it down till you close it. This agitates the fluid & can help get bubbles out. Repeat a number of times then do the LF the same. Ahead of time if the prop valve has an external pin valve on it pull it out & keep it out with a pair of vice grips. If this fails & I know you've checked all the front brake line fittings for tightness I'd actually take off the RF caliper and block the space in between the pads and bleed some more as you tilt it, repeat with LF. Sometimes the bleeder screw is at 12 0'clock but where this passage MEETS the bore is not at 12 0'clock so it's not the highest point and the highest point is where the air is going to rise to. OK; the M/C is bled out, the lines are tight, the prop valve usually does not hold air unless there's a high point so that only leaves the caliper. We're almost there EDIT if the pedal stomp does not help before I took a caliper(s) off I'd unscrew the front disc "out" line from the prop block & cap the block with a male plug same as you did the M/C & see if your now high and tight & if so rehook the line & continue on...
Last edited by RapidRobert; 10/18/11 01:43 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: 1970440RT]
#1084464
10/18/11 02:00 AM
10/18/11 02:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Did I possibly get a bad distribution block? can they trap air?
More info on this DISTRIBUTION block ? Stock/original or aftermarket ?
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: 1970440RT]
#1084467
10/18/11 09:29 AM
10/18/11 09:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
Rapid,
John- the distribution block I have now is a "supposed" good used. I bought a new one also but saw some threads about the new blocks having problems. I got the new block from Inline Tube, as well as the stainless lines.
I have heard (and suffered this once at a repair shop), that a prop valve, especially when old, can move/stick durign bleeding.
Those valves never see the maintenance or replacement like the MC does, and they won't perform full travel on the valve unless one section of the brakes gets opened fully, which happens only during bleeding or brake system failure.
Yeah, they see some 'maintenance' and new fluid when brakes components are replaced, but they're still an old cast-iron part with rust inside.
Just a possibility to consider.
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Re: Front Disk Brake Conversion not working as expected
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1084468
10/18/11 10:14 AM
10/18/11 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Rapid,
John- the distribution block I have now is a "supposed" good used. I bought a new one also but saw some threads about the new blocks having problems. I got the new block from Inline Tube, as well as the stainless lines.
I have heard (and suffered this once at a repair shop), that a prop valve, especially when old, can move/stick durign bleeding.
Those valves never see the maintenance or replacement like the MC does, and they won't perform full travel on the valve unless one section of the brakes gets opened fully, which happens only during bleeding or brake system failure.
Yeah, they see some 'maintenance' and new fluid when brakes components are replaced, but they're still an old cast-iron part with rust inside.
Just a possibility to consider.
I don't know what material the valve is made of but the block itself is Brass not cast iron, I imagine if it were iron it would rust itself stuck in no time.
RT , the distribution block is just that , a distribution block , 67 to 69 cars used the same block disc or drum with a residual valve in the line to the rear, all that changed in 1970.
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