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Burnt cups....again...
#985327
05/03/11 02:18 AM
05/03/11 02:18 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Built another 440 to put in another car Im building. That car isnt finished so I stuck it in my car. Due to being pissed, gunshy, sick, etc of burning up cups, I made damm sure on this motor that the cam bearing was in the right place, no obstructions in the block or heads, etc. I also filled the feed holes for the tips on the rockers...and also cut a connecting groove in the rockers from the oil band to the feed hole to the cup. Checked on the stand and oil was gushing out of the back of the rockers....Plenty of oil to the top....... Get the cam broke in, set lash again. Drive it, 20 or so miles. Hear a noise under both valve covers. Praying its just the rockers. (A little loose on side clearance). Drive 30 or so more miles and decide to put the inner springs back in. 50 FLIPPIN miles. 2 cups toasted and another showing signs of heat. All 3 on exhaust...same deal as my other motor. Most of the problems with it were on exhaust. A few intakes showed heat, but never blued very bad. These 3 are burnt to a crisp....worst Ive had so far. #1 exhaust was burnt....OK...maybe I was loosing too much oil from the excessive side clearance in the rockers. But, on the other side, #4 was cooked, and #8 showed signs of heat. So, that blew my first thought... The oil in the car is a mixture of old rotella and oil that a local shop has formulated for them, for dyno use. Id say 2k or more PPM of zinc. Spring pressure was only 300 or so open, nothing close to heavy. Cam is only a XE282S, puny little thing... Old style Hughes rockers, which I think are the same as the blue indy rockers... I noticed on the stand that the pushrods were a hair too short. Id say they need to be .050 or so longer, but they arent super short. Again, I'll say that the X amount of threads sticking out of the adjuster is meaningless. I have 1.5 sticking out and it probably needs to be 0 out, but cmon.... So, what have I missed?? I have a set of HS rockers that are going on next...I keep hearing run the HS, it will fix your problems...I guess we will flippin see... Any ideas welcomed!! I'll even take a few sticks of dynomite.. 
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Von]
#985330
05/03/11 09:37 AM
05/03/11 09:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I dont know the Hughs rockers but does it have a hole that shoots oil at the cup OR does it oil through a hole in the adjuster 
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#985331
05/03/11 09:50 AM
05/03/11 09:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
I dont know the Hughs rockers but does it have a hole
that shoots oil at the cup OR does it oil through a
hole in the adjuster
Shoots oil at the cup.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Von]
#985333
05/03/11 10:32 AM
05/03/11 10:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I noticed on the stand that the pushrods were a hair too short. Id say they need to be .050 or so longer, but they arent super short. Again, I'll say that the X amount of threads sticking out of the adjuster is meaningless. I have 1.5 sticking out and it probably needs to be 0 out, but cmon....
So, what have I missed??
I have a set of HS rockers that are going on next...I keep hearing run the HS, it will fix your problems...I guess we will flippin see...
Any ideas welcomed!! I'll even take a few sticks of dynomite..
I thought 2 to 3 threads was ideal , if you go to 0 wouldn't the cups hit the rocker body?
Are your pushrods ball/cup or did you switch to ball ball and cups on the rockers ?
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Von]
#985334
05/03/11 10:41 AM
05/03/11 10:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Von..
Throw up a picture ir two if you can. These are two totally different engines right?
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: maximum entropy]
#985337
05/03/11 01:49 PM
05/03/11 01:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Get a new set of adjusters that have a hollow hole in them. I know Jesel has them, thats what comes on there stuff. I have had better luck with the cup adjusters and ball end-ball end pushrods. It isnt very hard to add a spray bar under there either. This would sure eliminate the problems. I made my own spray bar setup with 3/16 inverted flare brake fittings, and a little imagination. Good Luck
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Stanton]
#985339
05/03/11 05:38 PM
05/03/11 05:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I've never understood the point of a cup adjuster/ball pushrod in a performance application. Gravity causes things to run downhill ... including oil. Add spring pressure to that and I just can't see how this style would ever get lubtricated! At least with a cup-style pushrod oil will tend to want to sit in it.
All the big dollar stuff has the cup adjuster with a
oil hole in the cup... the oil is right there... not
spraying oil at the area
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Challenger 1]
#985340
05/03/11 06:45 PM
05/03/11 06:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 354
Livonia Michigan
440dart
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 354
Livonia Michigan
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Quote:
I believe it's gonna be a difference in cup and ball size. I bet if you look real close the ball is not fitting in the cup correctly, not enough contact area causing overheating because only a small area of contact. imo
And the only lube I would use at first start up is black moly lub.
Best to buy those 2 things(adjuster and cups) from someone like Smith Brothers so you know what you have, size and hardening. There are different ball and cup sizes.
I had this same problem, and I went with Smith Bros. adjusters and push rods, PROBLEM SOLVED. Do they look like this
Last edited by 440dart; 05/03/11 07:00 PM.
Yes I live in Michigan, so there is still 1 light on
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: fasthawk6]
#985343
05/03/11 09:40 PM
05/03/11 09:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 808
mckinney texas
shoebox
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 808
mckinney texas
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Ive got a question..... Can you have the cup adjuster and ball/ball pushrod And NOT have "pushrod oiling"? Where do the hollow smith bros cup adjusters get oil from?Im going with normal HS rockers.... Do Those have these problems? Thanks 
Last edited by shoebox; 05/03/11 09:42 PM.
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: shoebox]
#985344
05/03/11 09:47 PM
05/03/11 09:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Ive got a question..... Can you have the cup adjuster and ball/ball pushrod
And NOT have "pushrod oiling"? Where do the hollow smith bros cup adjusters get oil from?Im going with normal HS rockers.... Do
Those have these problems? Thanks
That depends on weather the rocker is made for the cup
and cup oiler, but to just change over wont work
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#985345
05/04/11 12:42 AM
05/04/11 12:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
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Von, Those Erson Rockers I sent you have the correct adjuster to run ball ball pushrods. Look those over real careful and make the changes to the other rockers. The ball ball adjuster came from Jesel I believe. PROBLEMS OVER!!! 
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Re: Burnt cups....again...
[Re: Biginchmopar]
#985346
05/04/11 10:39 AM
05/04/11 10:39 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
I thought 2 to 3 threads was ideal , if you go to 0 wouldn't the cups hit the rocker body?
Are your pushrods ball/cup or did you switch to ball ball and cups on the rockers ?
I discussed this with Dwayne a month or so ago. Basically you get the pushrod length set to where the feed hole has a straight shot at the cup...and the number of threads or lackthereof, falls where it may. I knew the pushrods Im using are a hair short, but nothing major.
And no, at 0 threads it wont be hitting the rocker body..
Cup pushrods, ball adjusters.
Ive stripped the Hughes rockers off, and thrown them in a box. Last night I put a set of HS rockers on, and ran the drill to see what the oiling looks like. I have tested 6 different brands of rockers over the past 8 months or so. The HS rockers are the ONLY ones that when oil is running out of the feed hole, it actually hits the screw/cup. All the others, oil would just run down the back of the rocker. I could still use a hair longer pushrod to have the relationship between the cup and feed hole ideal, but I'll run it a few miles and see what happens..........
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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