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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#980355
02/25/12 07:53 PM
02/25/12 07:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
predator..............nuf said......... 
Yep, but Id sure like to have that engine you have in the Daytona.. Thing is the "Little Engine That Could" clean 90% of the 600+ cube monsters I see with exotic heads etc....
What is it John 528 Cubes, B1 Original's (not even fully ported)? Runs what 4.60-4.70's at a buck fifty + in the 8th mile 
 
.
.
Johns engine
He must have some spray. My dragster at 1850lbs is right there with a 572, no NOS. So...not buying that it's N/A.
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: LA360]
#980356
02/25/12 10:04 PM
02/25/12 10:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 914
tn
robnbird
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 914
tn
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Quote:
The average Mopar guy is a tight wad plain and simple,  Amen  hence why people are not prepared to develop to decent high end parts. Most of these guys will get upset when you tell them so too!
 preachit brother  u not sayit les u steppin on those toes uh   Im building a HEMI now.
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: EchoSixMike]
#980360
02/26/12 05:07 AM
02/26/12 05:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
RT540
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
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Most mopar racers, donīt have the budget or the chassi in door slammer cars to take advantage of 1200+ hp, hereīs the biggest reason why predator heads are hard to sell.
I think that the mind opens up to none wedge designs, once you have struggled to run under 8 seconds with a door car.
One exception for the PSO head tho.
Look at the fastest times, list, just 12 members in the 7 to 8 sec. list and half of those are dragsters. The potencial customers for N/A 1200+hp are not many, on this mopar board.
Just my opinion, and I wouldīt mind to run Predator heads myself, or PSO heads either for that matter.
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: dthemi]
#980362
02/26/12 12:00 PM
02/26/12 12:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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Us Mopar racers ourselves or the reason we don't have more people building parts for us. Any time someone makes something for a Mopar the people that have no need for the parts if they were give to them,start bashing them and scare the people who need and can afford them away from buying them. There are so many difference companies making chevy and now ford parts they have to compete with each other on prices,that not only provides more and better parts for them to choose from but cheaper prices. The only reason I don't have a set of the Indy Predator heads is I have not saved up enough $$$ to buy a set yet,but saving up $$$ for a set.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: go green]
#980363
02/26/12 12:12 PM
02/26/12 12:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,029
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,029
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
I read this thread and realize why Steve sold the rights to Indy , what a bunch of cry baby dinosaurs . The aftermarket community will only survive if there is a viable and willing consumer to buy a product . Do you guys understand why there are not anymore manufacturers willing to developing a high performance cylinder heads for hard core mopar racers ?
This ^^^^^^.
Ford & Chevy guys EMBRACE every advancement that comes and they come in droves. They could care less if the valve is upside down, the head is 9 feet tall, the ports are spread across three area codes, or the bore center runs from bumper to bumper.
In the MOPAR world, if the part doesn't resemble 60s assembly line tech, IT'S NOT A MOPAR ......quite a farce. The Ford & Chevy stuff that actually RUNS, is so faaaaaaaaaar removed from their stock garbage it's laughable. 
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: jim sciortino]
#980364
02/26/12 12:45 PM
02/26/12 12:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Tampa Fl
kens avenger
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Tampa Fl
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The Price is not bad at all...you can spend a ton of money on B-1 stuff .. and not get close to the pred stuff...
Steve who makes the rockers for your stuff and the valves????
Kenny
Last edited by kens avenger; 02/26/12 01:06 PM.
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: RT540]
#980365
02/26/12 01:03 PM
02/26/12 01:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 345
iowa
wesw
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 345
iowa
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that list for the fastest car list is so far out of date. the last update on it was 09/09. i had a B1MC motor in my car and i went to a predator motor because the B1 wouldn't get the job done. flat out the best it would run was 7.87 @ 176 mph. my predator motor without the spray runs 7.45 @185 and with a soft tune up on one kit it's gone 7.11 @196 mph. i'm sure i will have no problem getting into the 6s on one kit. going fast does cost so if you want to play you have to pay. Quote:
Most mopar racers, donīt have the budget or the chassi in door slammer cars to take advantage of 1200+ hp, hereīs the biggest reason why predator heads are hard to sell.
I think that the mind opens up to none wedge designs, once you have struggled to run under 8 seconds with a door car.
One exception for the PSO head tho.
Look at the fastest times, list, just 12 members in the 7 to 8 sec. list and half of those are dragsters. The potencial customers for N/A 1200+hp are not many, on this mopar board.
Just my opinion, and I wouldīt mind to run Predator heads myself, or PSO heads either for that matter.
598 ci predator
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: wesw]
#980367
02/26/12 01:50 PM
02/26/12 01:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
RT540
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
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Quote:
that list for the fastest car list is so far out of date. the last update on it was 09/09. i had a B1MC motor in my car and i went to a predator motor because the B1 wouldn't get the job done. flat out the best it would run was 7.87 @ 176 mph.
my predator motor without the spray runs 7.45 @185
and with a soft tune up on one kit it's gone 7.11 @196 mph. i'm sure i will have no problem getting into the 6s on one kit. going fast does cost so if you want to play you have to pay.
I hear you, I do agree, that list is old.
Curious still ( not trying to be a smart a..) how many members do have door cars N/A running sub 8 sec time slips here ?
Tom
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: B1Johnny]
#980368
02/26/12 01:51 PM
02/26/12 01:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,288
Oregon
sg66mopar
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,288
Oregon
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Just amazes me how fast it all progresses. Three years ago when I starter my B1 MC deal I thought it was pretty close to the top of the heap. After reading this I feel like I'm really in the low bucks ranks and shouldn't even show up at the track any more. And BTW, Tom: "Hey I'm a whiner too, but I am a Mopar guy and have been for 45 years." I didn't think you WERE 45 yet! 
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: kens avenger]
#980370
02/26/12 04:32 PM
02/26/12 04:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Just some observations, and some questions. Mopar guys are definitely different than most of the Chevy and Ford guys I know. The Ford and Chevy guys almost always have one car, with one goal and one class they want to Race, then they persue that goal with everything they have until they win, they meet thier expectations, or it breaks them financially or otherwise. Then they sell all that stuff and head off in another direction. Mopar Guys want a Cool B-body street car, a new SRT-8 something, a restored 340 A-body like they had in high school. They have a caged drag car, that has to have a tag, in case they want to go on Drag Week, it has to have a trans brake for pro-tree classes in case they want to run NHRA Super Street, or the Index class at the local Street car shootouts, and any electronics have to be removable so they can run at the Heritage Series or local nostalgia events! They just found a barn-find E-body that was priced right, it's going to need everything but they couldn't pass it up, but they'd really like to build a Top Sporstman ride someday or maybe a heads-up car, or what about a SS-AH car... Yeah it's a big difference, I like to think Mopar guys are a little more prudent...prudent hoarders, ok OK, so we have some unresolved issues, but it doesn't make us CHEAP, just unfocused...I guess. I've spent 4K in parts on my mopars since 11/30, problem is thats spread out over 4 different toys  . The only thing I own, that I've ever raced, that wasn't a stock block deal, Is a Indy Maxx low deck 512 with -1 heads, which I purchased complete, used for 10K, after I had put 60 passes on it, and was pleased with the reliability, and knew it would fit into my program. When I look at what I can afford to race, class wise and engine wise, it's important to set expectations and parameters. For myself I have no desire to persue a class which requires my engine to be freshened or gone through in 25-100 passes, that just doesn't meet my "Bang for the buck" requirements. I personally know guys with engine programs that need that kind of maintenance, in Comp Eliminator, Super Stock, Top Sportsman, Top Dragster, a plethora of local and regional heads-up classes, and even the occasional small-block Stock eliminator record chaser. I think the majority of Mopar guys go through this same kind of checklist. Do I want to run Super Comp and fast brackets with a Dragster? Do I want a 6.0 cert chassis door car to run SG/ Fast brackets/possibly TS-Q16 stuff? Do I want a 4 link 7.50 cert door car that will work for SG/SST fast brackets, or will a back-halved traditional Mopar Muscle car with an 8.50 cert and ladder bars better fit my budget. Since most of us have more cars than cash floating around, when that 15,000 to 25,000 dollar Daytona is available, or that 35,000 to 95,000 dollar ex top sportsman or ex pro stock ride becomes available...we don't make that jump, even if it would be smarter than what we end up doing, which is continually upgrading what we already have. So The B-1s and the 440-1s come out and the typical Mopar guy looked, and said, "That's a big jump, intake, rockers, headers, I'll be 5k+, I'll just port my 906's. Mopar Performance comes out with the Stage VI, which is plagued with numerous quality issues and doesn't perform as advertised. And we're labeled as cheap. Edelbrock releases the RPM, which is aluminum, fits all the stock stuff, works great with stock stroke combos, is competitively priced, responds great to porting and is a tough quality casting. It makes factory heads obsolete and is an instant hit. And we're labeled as cheap. In an effort to bridge the gap, B1-BS and Indy SRs try to adress a section of the market. Affordable Stroker kits make it more realistic for those who decide to use B-1s and 440-1's Fred Brewer builds an excellent head, but it was 15 years too early, and poorly marketed And we're labeled as cheap. Indy has to release the EZ series because manufacturers won't or refuse to build quality headers for the raised port RB engined stock chassis cars. As the horsepower wars grow, and cubic inches grow, a niche market forms for guys who want need more power than a stock bore space 440-1 or B-1 can provide. So Indy builds a 572-13, and B-1 derivitives with alphabet soup lettering like MC, TS, PSO become avaiable. Obviously the tip of the spear is a small point, the 4.80 bore space wedge engine has seen 50 years of refinement and development, and here comes the Predator. A Niche head, in a niche of a niche of a niche market. And they don't sell like crazy, so we're labeled as cheap. 440 Source builds an aluminum head with a solid casting, which LOOKS stock, and they bring it in at a price point under the RPM, it reponds well to porting, and they market the heck out of it. They sell tons...That proves it Mopar guys are cheap! So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: MoparBilly]
#980371
02/26/12 05:57 PM
02/26/12 05:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,107
Quebec, Canada
Diablo
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,107
Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
First off very nice post, I enjoyed reading it very much.
I asked about the 4.840 indy stuff on here years ago and the response was go for it if you want to Marry Indy. Not to many people that are into that lvl of engine seem to want that. Although they would give a ring to Bob George in a second;)
Over the past 10 years I have built engine after engine (or bought and then rebuilt) trying to keep up with the competition in our local Pulling club which has been growing rapidly over the years. Each engine built had to be bigger and stronger to try and keep up with the GM and Ford boys. 15-20 years ago we ran a old stock 440 with some NOS and had lots of fun. The fun stopped pretty quickly when the rule no Nitros was put in. So I ported the 906 heads added a torquer 2 intake and stayed in last place for 2 years.
So the stage 6 heads were coming out and I bought a set of them. Bored the old 440 .060 over added a 509 came and the new victor intake. Engine ran fine for what it was but at this time the GM and Ford boys had 500ci strokers and the little 440 couldn't keep up.
So I found a great deal on 496ci engine with 440-1c heads. We went through the engine and it made 800hp. We won our points championship once and runner up the next year. Rules changed again in the club and people were starting to come in with 572ci GM and Ford engines. We upgraded the 496 to get another 50hp out of her but it just couldn't keep up again.....
At this time the Predators were just out and we knew we needed a 600ci engine to compete against the now 650ci engines in the club. We struck a deal on an older 636ci B1-TS engine. Money was the factor of coarse going with the TS heads and not the Predators. Also we were told of the advantages of the larger 4.840BS block and didn't know much about the TS or 4.840 stuff but we learnt very quickly. We learnt that what people said these heads and engines were, were not exact the reality of them. Even with the 636 engine and 1100+hp we were still behind cause people were running 650ci Schmit engines with 1300hp.
We then had to make the decision of what to do to try and get into that 1200-1300hp range. A Predator engine at the time would have done it for sure (2 years ago) but we decided to go the B1-TS route once again but this time have all the bells and whistles done to the heads and engine. The engine i'm talking about now is the 640 I've had for the last two years and I just sold this winter. We were extremely happy with the engine and it did what it could for what it was. We aimed for 1200-1300 and got it but last season we realized that even 1300hp is not enough to keep up on power tracks.
After selling the two b1-TS engines we finally had the money to sit down and actually decide which head/engine would be the best way to go. We thought Predator, Hemi 99, Hemi Millenium, we even considered going to the dark side. Very quickly we realized that no 4.800 BS head would keep up with the 4.900 or 5 inch GM/Ford pulling engines.
Are the Predator heads a great 4.800 head..... YES.... Will they make that 1200-1300hp....Sure.... Were they going to make the 1400+ I needed for the next engine. Nope. Is it the Predators heads fault? Maybe not. Being on the 4.800BS is the problem, even the 4.840 wouldn't help. Either have to move right to the 4.900 like prostock/ford, or right to the 5 inch stuff.
Every power lvl comes with a cost and the certain equipment to do it with. I've made mistakes in the past but i've learnt a hell of a lot going through these last ten years.
The people who don't send nice words to the "newer" equipment out there just won't or never wanted to attain that higher power level in the first place.
To me if it was attended to be made for a mopar its a MOPAR. Let it be 906's, b1's, Brewer, Zeeker, Millennium stage5, 600-13, pro stock hemi...... They are all MOPAR to me 
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Re: predator heads over priced?
[Re: Diablo]
#980372
02/26/12 10:32 PM
02/26/12 10:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
First off very nice post, I enjoyed reading it very much.
I asked about the 4.840 indy stuff on here years ago and the response was go for it if you want to Marry Indy. Not to many people that are into that lvl of engine seem to want that. Although they would give a ring to Bob George in a second;)
Over the past 10 years I have built engine after engine (or bought and then rebuilt) trying to keep up with the competition in our local Pulling club which has been growing rapidly over the years. Each engine built had to be bigger and stronger to try and keep up with the GM and Ford boys. 15-20 years ago we ran a old stock 440 with some NOS and had lots of fun. The fun stopped pretty quickly when the rule no Nitros was put in. So I ported the 906 heads added a torquer 2 intake and stayed in last place for 2 years.
So the stage 6 heads were coming out and I bought a set of them. Bored the old 440 .060 over added a 509 came and the new victor intake. Engine ran fine for what it was but at this time the GM and Ford boys had 500ci strokers and the little 440 couldn't keep up.
So I found a great deal on 496ci engine with 440-1c heads. We went through the engine and it made 800hp. We won our points championship once and runner up the next year. Rules changed again in the club and people were starting to come in with 572ci GM and Ford engines. We upgraded the 496 to get another 50hp out of her but it just couldn't keep up again.....
At this time the Predators were just out and we knew we needed a 600ci engine to compete against the now 650ci engines in the club. We struck a deal on an older 636ci B1-TS engine. Money was the factor of coarse going with the TS heads and not the Predators. Also we were told of the advantages of the larger 4.840BS block and didn't know much about the TS or 4.840 stuff but we learnt very quickly. We learnt that what people said these heads and engines were, were not exact the reality of them. Even with the 636 engine and 1100+hp we were still behind cause people were running 650ci Schmit engines with 1300hp.
We then had to make the decision of what to do to try and get into that 1200-1300hp range. A Predator engine at the time would have done it for sure (2 years ago) but we decided to go the B1-TS route once again but this time have all the bells and whistles done to the heads and engine. The engine i'm talking about now is the 640 I've had for the last two years and I just sold this winter. We were extremely happy with the engine and it did what it could for what it was. We aimed for 1200-1300 and got it but last season we realized that even 1300hp is not enough to keep up on power tracks.
After selling the two b1-TS engines we finally had the money to sit down and actually decide which head/engine would be the best way to go. We thought Predator, Hemi 99, Hemi Millenium, we even considered going to the dark side. Very quickly we realized that no 4.800 BS head would keep up with the 4.900 or 5 inch GM/Ford pulling engines.
Are the Predator heads a great 4.800 head..... YES.... Will they make that 1200-1300hp....Sure.... Were they going to make the 1400+ I needed for the next engine. Nope. Is it the Predators heads fault? Maybe not. Being on the 4.800BS is the problem, even the 4.840 wouldn't help. Either have to move right to the 4.900 like prostock/ford, or right to the 5 inch stuff.
Every power lvl comes with a cost and the certain equipment to do it with. I've made mistakes in the past but i've learnt a hell of a lot going through these last ten years.
The people who don't send nice words to the "newer" equipment out there just won't or never wanted to attain that higher power level in the first place.
To me if it was attended to be made for a mopar its a MOPAR. Let it be 906's, b1's, Brewer, Zeeker, Millennium stage5, 600-13, pro stock hemi...... They are all MOPAR to me
Well said Mopar Billy and Diablo. My take on the whole Mopar, GM, Ford brand loyalty deal is this: I have been a diehard Mopar fan since I owned my first car. It was a 64 Dodge with a 383 4speed. Damn, I miss that car, and it ran better than any Chevy or Ford in my high school. Anybody that had anything real fast, usually owned a Mopar.
About the "cheap stuff". 440 source, Edelbrock, stage 6 heads, -1's, etc, are all street strip/stuff IMO. But, there is a place and purpose for it in the Mopar community.
When people sit around sniveling about why more people like Steve Gill and Best Machine and for that matter Indy, don't want to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in the development of race stuff for Mopar racers, it's because we are not that hard core as a group, to pay what it costs to buy said developed products, IMO.
And when we as racers, not street/strip guys, don't support the technology that's out there, these guys decide not to waste anymore money on the stuff they made for us, that doesn't sell.
I would bet Diablo will spend over 50K if he decides to go Mopar for the same thing a GM can go buy for $38,000 from Schmidt, I know I've been looking at that stuff. So if Diablo decides to go that route, he's as loyal to Mopar as it gets. I'm not sure I will be in the future. And I applaud the Indy, 440 Source, Koffels, Pete and Chuck, Steve G., and anybody else that still wants to develop stuff for my hobby.
I got tired of restoring car (all Mopars) and taking them to car shows and parking lots, long ago. But for those that get a kick out of that, great. I'm a racer now and find it very hard to step up in class with my budget, while remaining loyal to Mopar. So I may eventually change over to the "dark side" and we are cheap, including me, about what we're willing to pay for our loyalty in comparison to the previously mentioned innovators.
I thank Steve for building my Predator the way he did, and for the price he did it for, but I still whined about the money. It was a great deal and I would recommend him to anybody. He built my motor like it was going to be his, and that's passion and commitment in my book.
That's right, I said it, rant over.
PS, you would be hard pressed to buy the same GM or Ford, for what he charged me, and I still whined.
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