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413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? #930421 02/16/11 05:17 PM 02/16/11 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	Just pulled an old 413 I had in storgae out and have a look at it. Its a C413 also has ET41 stamped on the pad , 8 29 94. Now the question is the cam is gear driven large gear on the cam small gear on the crank. Is this normal on 413s?

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930422 02/16/11 05:52 PM 02/16/11 05:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa B buildanother I Live Here
buildanother I Live Here B Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa	If it has just the 2 gears and no chain, I wonder if it was a reverse rotation marine engine? Or some H D industrial? dunno.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: buildanother] #930423 02/16/11 06:19 PM 02/16/11 06:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot
dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation	THAT'S a typical RV/truck engine. That set-up cost Mopar big-$$ compared to a cahin ... but they were KINGS of the market back then.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: buildanother] #930424 02/16/11 06:53 PM 02/16/11 06:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	Quote: If it has just the 2 gears and no chain, I wonder if it was a reverse rotation marine engine? Or some H D industrial? dunno. Thats the question, the cam is rotating opposite to the crank so that cam will not work in a 440 with a chain. But it would be a great setup with no slack chain problems. Doc says its a typical truck/RV engine, so if its typical , the 413 cams must be ground different if its a truck /RV engine . I can't recall tearing down a 413 car engine to see if it just had the two gears or a chain. anybody know if there is a diff ???/

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930425 02/16/11 06:58 PM 02/16/11 06:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	You could put that cam in any big block as long as you use the gears. Likewise you could use any cam in that block as long as you use a normal timing set.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Stanton] #930426 02/16/11 07:36 PM 02/16/11 07:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2010 Posts: 606 Montana Y Yancy Derringer mopar
Yancy Derringer mopar Y Joined: Oct 2010 Posts: 606 Montana	!!!! WAIT A MINUTE !!!! Let's get this STRAIGHT!!!! You are saying?? That there is a GEAR on the crank, and a GEAR on the cam, and NOTHING ELSE, no chain, no idler gears, etc? THIS MEANS one of two things: Either this is a reverse rotation marine engine or It's a normal rotation engine with a gear drive cam. IF THIS IS TRUE you MAY NOT be able to use a standard distributor unless the dist. drive gear on the cam / driveshaft was ground 'reverse' to compensate. YOU CAN EASILY tell if the distributor is "standard" CCW rotation for a BB / RB. Simply "spring" the mechanical advance. Easy---if the dist. is CCW rotation, you must "spring against the spring" CCW, and the spring will "pop back" CW You can tell if the engine is reverse rotation by rotating it with a wrench and examining how the valve train operates. If you have the starter, hook it to a battery and see which way it operates, then visualise it operating the flywheel. ---- OR --- "hand rotate" the starter drive to see which way it ratchets. (over runs). The starter obviously operates the other direction. To put it differently, visualise the starter, as if you were viewing it installed, from the front of an engine. Visualize that as an engine starts (normal rotation) the flywheel rotates CW as viewed from the front. This means that the starter drive gear will be rotating CCW AND WILL RATCHET in that direction. The chances of this being a "basackwards" engine is slim, but they do exist

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Yancy Derringer] #930427 02/16/11 09:10 PM 02/16/11 09:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	Reverse rotation ... only the crank turns in reverse, everything else is normal. Only the firing order on the dist is reversed but the dist still rotates in the same direction ... it has to to drive the oil pump so it sucks instead of blows! If its a reverse rotation engine then the dist. gear would be the same as any normal big block and so would the cam. The crank would be turning counterclockwise but the cam would be turning clockwise because of the gear drive.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Stanton] #930428 02/16/11 10:19 PM 02/16/11 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	Quote: You could put that cam in any big block as long as you use the gears. Likewise you could use any cam in that block as long as you use a normal timing set. OK I have to agree with you , as the piston only sees intake , compression, detonation, exhaust. the only thing that would change is that the piston notch that is facing forward would now have to face toward the back of the block to stop piston slap? Other than the starter motor and crank spinning "backward"and dist. setup nothing else really matters . I have worked a fair amount on Jimmy diesels 71 series and 53 series engines . If you change rotation you have to change cams. Last edited by mopar_man; 02/16/11 10:20 PM.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Stanton] #930429 02/17/11 09:41 AM 02/17/11 09:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	Quote: Reverse rotation ... only the crank turns in reverse, everything else is normal. Only the firing order on the dist is reversed but the dist still rotates in the same direction ... it has to to drive the oil pump so it sucks instead of blows! If its a reverse rotation engine then the dist. gear would be the same as any normal big block and so would the cam. The crank would be turning counterclockwise but the cam would be turning clockwise because of the gear drive. So, if its a reverse rotation 413 using just two mated gears, that cam is a standard cam , if its a normal rotation 413 using two mated gears, the cam has to be ground opposite(backwards)

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930430 02/17/11 10:49 AM 02/17/11 10:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	You got it sunshine! My guess is its a reverse rotation motor and here's why ... If its a reverse rotation motor the only things they had to change were a) the timing gears b) the starter and c) the firing order. Everything else stays the same ... cam, dist drive, oil pump, etc. However, if its a standard rotation motor with a reverse rotation cam then they had to change a) the cam grind b) the timing gears and c) the dist drive gear. For what ... what advantage is a reverse rotation cam ?!?!?

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930431 02/17/11 10:53 AM 02/17/11 10:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 137 Daytona Beach, FL C cknight member
cknight member C Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 137 Daytona Beach, FL	Quote: Quote: Reverse rotation ... only the crank turns in reverse, everything else is normal. Only the firing order on the dist is reversed but the dist still rotates in the same direction ... it has to to drive the oil pump so it sucks instead of blows! If its a reverse rotation engine then the dist. gear would be the same as any normal big block and so would the cam. The crank would be turning counterclockwise but the cam would be turning clockwise because of the gear drive. So, if its a reverse rotation 413 using just two mated gears, that cam is a standard cam , if its a normal rotation 413 using two mated gears, the cam has to be ground opposite(backwards) If it's a reverse rotation engine with two mated gears, the cam turns in the normal rotation (and uses a standard distributor gear), but the lobes are positioned differently for the different firing order (1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8) that the crank throws require. This necessitates a different camshaft. Also, the reverse rotation crankshafts have a reverse angled knurl where the rear main seal rides, so if you install a reverse rotation crank in a standard rotation engine (or vice/versa), it will do a decent job of pumping oil out the back.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: cknight] #930432 02/17/11 11:05 AM 02/17/11 11:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	Good point!

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Stanton] #930433 02/17/11 02:51 PM 02/17/11 02:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot
dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation	Quote: Good point! How so ? ..... what is diff here is the CAM, cam and crank gears and the distributor gear.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930434 02/17/11 06:55 PM 02/17/11 06:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets Senior Management
feets Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Quote: Just pulled an old 413 I had in storgae out and have a look at it. Its a C413 also has ET41 stamped on the pad , 8 29 94. Now the question is the cam is gear driven large gear on the cam small gear on the crank. Is this normal on 413s? Can you post some pics? We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: feets] #930435 02/17/11 10:24 PM 02/17/11 10:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	Will get a pic tommorrow. The cam gear is so large It looks so close the the timing cover housing.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930436 02/18/11 07:25 PM 02/18/11 07:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland M mopar_man OP master
mopar_man OP master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,664 Newfoundland	ok . i got a pic of the cam gear and the pad , but the pics won't load . They are in jpg format. anyone know how to upload these so we can view them ?

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: mopar_man] #930437 02/18/11 08:50 PM 02/18/11 08:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 16 NC T Turbo W350 member
Turbo W350 member T Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 16 NC	All 413 and 361 industrial engines used gear driven cams, nothing at all about odd here it's just a run of the mill 413 HD. '85 W-350 Crew Cab, Turbocharged 440, NP435/205, 4.10 D60f/70r

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Turbo W350] #930438 02/18/11 08:54 PM 02/18/11 08:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot
dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation	Quote: All 413 and 361 industrial engines used gear driven cams, nothing at all about odd here it's just a run of the mill 413 HD. ...sorry NOT ALL did ... quite-a-few ? ...Yes.

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: dOrk !] #930439 02/18/11 09:05 PM 02/18/11 09:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 16 NC T Turbo W350 member
Turbo W350 member T Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 16 NC	Quote: Quote: All 413 and 361 industrial engines used gear driven cams, nothing at all about odd here it's just a run of the mill 413 HD. ...sorry NOT ALL did ... Yes they did, along with solid lifters, special heads and water pump for extra cooling, if it does hot have all these different parts then it's not a HD engine, just a car big block. '85 W-350 Crew Cab, Turbocharged 440, NP435/205, 4.10 D60f/70r

Re: 413 cam shaft gears.?????????????? [Re: Turbo W350] #930440 02/18/11 09:08 PM 02/18/11 09:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot
dOrk ! The village idiot's idiot Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,427 Florida STAYcation	Quote: Yes they did, along with solid lifters, special heads and water pump for extra cooling, if it does hot have all these different parts then it's not a HD engine, just a car big block. Solid lifters ? .... WHERE did you come up with that ? And I KNOW these engines ...I have ELEVEN of them.

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