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Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911237 01/23/11 02:49 PM 01/23/11 02:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,941 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,941 NC	Quote: Thanks to those who have responded. I went through about a dozen different logbooks that were lent to me by box/no box racers. Approx. avg for a no box was a .028 and the box was .014. Thanks for the data. That is about what I would expect if all the racers were pretty good. And it is very close to what I posted above (0.010 vs 0.030). I doubt my average foot brake light was that good (0.028). I do target 0.030, but there are some bad RTs that likely kill the actual average. 1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: Quicktree] #911238 01/23/11 03:09 PM 01/23/11 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas	WOW I think some filks need to learn a little more about what a delay box does. I think some folks might confuse a delay box with a throttle stop. I think what JohnnyRotten posted would be accurate at most e very track in the country. When looking at average reation times from box to no box you will find the box cars have a distint advantage on the tree. I dont know any electronics or .90 racer that does not work very hard on getting thier cars to react quickly, allowing them to run as much delay as possible. This will allow for any short comings in track conditions or set up from track to track, for those who travel. Believe me every track is different and we carry different amounts of delay from track to track and many times lane to lane. Now to the question at hand. IMO at a Q16 race why exclude anyone? A delay box with crossover should be allowed, after all it is a Q16/32 BRACKET race. I think a footbrake Q32 race is not gonna be a real crowd pleaser as, no offense intended here but full of slower cars. My car runs ok but not sure I could qualify for a Q32 race around here. BTW if having the box makes you that much better please feel free to put one in your car and come play. I always enjoy folks who think it makes you a better racer, I often wonder if they think that then why dont they put one in and come race. Box races usually pay a good deal more to win than no box so why race for less? Especially if adding one makes it easier, and thus makes you a better racer. Just never understood this mentality. I already can hear it, we didn't race that way back in the day. Electronics is cheating it aint racing blah blah blah. We will gladly welcome you with open arms. IMO the biggest difference you will find between box and no box is the MOV.. "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: Al_Alguire] #911239 01/23/11 03:11 PM 01/23/11 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas	If you are running S/PRO with a box and leaving off the bottom bulb you are doing it wrong! "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911240 01/23/11 03:23 PM 01/23/11 03:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,852 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,852 Bend,OR USA	I think you have to keep the human factor in mind, someone has to let go of the button with the boxes and the no box racer has to let go of the button. The foot brake racers has to decide when on flooring the gas pedal and letting off of the brake pedal. It wouldn't suprise me that a good racer can win in either type of car, box, no box with a trans brake and lastly foot braking only Some of us will use any excuse we can to not figure out how to win constentintly Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: Al_Alguire] #911241 01/23/11 03:25 PM 01/23/11 03:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	Quote: If you are running S/PRO with a box and leaving off the bottom bulb you are doing it wrong! no kidding

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911242 01/23/11 03:50 PM 01/23/11 03:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 8,020 Pangaea B5 Bee master
B5 Bee master Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 8,020 Pangaea	If a statistical handicapper were to give an number that would equalize the box/no box classes, I think it would be around .030.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: B5 Bee] #911243 01/23/11 04:50 PM 01/23/11 04:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,475 SW Ohio C cgall top fuel
cgall top fuel C Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,475 SW Ohio	I also target .030 off the foot. If I am on my game, I can make small adjustments depending on who I am racing. The thing I always tell kids about the transbrake/delay box is that if you miss the tree with the box, you might be .02 off and still have a chance to play the other end and win. If you miss the tree on the bottom bulb, it will usually mean a .090 light. This is another reason the box makes an average/mediocre racer better.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: 68roadrunner] #911244 01/23/11 04:52 PM 01/23/11 04:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 977 Poulsbo, WA ChrisJohnston669 super stock
ChrisJohnston669 super stock Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 977 Poulsbo, WA	Quote: Quote: If there is no cross over or cross talk that gives the advantage to the slowest guy. Clean tree. i disagree just add the et difference to your delay and leave on the other bulb. poor mans crossover. to respond to the op, the box will have some advantage, a real fast car would be hard to setup for bottom bulb imo That makes it hard if the bulb is blocked.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911245 01/23/11 05:00 PM 01/23/11 05:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 653 Fort Worth, TX Dago Red mopar
Dago Red mopar Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 653 Fort Worth, TX	"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain" Commander Montgomery Scott.............. If You Can't Be Good, At Least Be Colorful

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: Cab_Burge] #911246 01/23/11 05:16 PM 01/23/11 05:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,075 Mooresburg, Tn ' '72CudaRacer top fuel
'72CudaRacer top fuel ' Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,075 Mooresburg, Tn	Quote: It wouldn't suprise me that a good racer can win in either type of car, box, no box with a trans brake and lastly foot braking only A very good example of this statement is Steve Foley. At the postponed Hangover Nationals in Montgomery, Alabama yesterday, Steve won the box race and lost at 4 cars in the no box class. (he's in two different cars) Wouldn't surprise me to see him win one of them today. Brian Dunnigan Last edited by '72CudaRacer; 01/23/11 05:17 PM.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: cgall] #911247 01/23/11 05:24 PM 01/23/11 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas	Quote: This is another reason the box makes an average/mediocre racer better. A good racer is a good racer no matter where you put them. Biondo, Fletcher, Richardson, Rampy, gecker on and on. They have all won with regularity both ways. If you think a box makes it easier then I fail to understand why folks like this decide to race with no electronics for less money. Logic would dictate if that the above statement were true you would not be a very smart person to race for less money in no box. After all the box makes a mediocre racer better, imagine what it can do if you are good "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: Al_Alguire] #911248 01/23/11 06:12 PM 01/23/11 06:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,373 Park Forest, IL slantzilla Too Many Posts
slantzilla Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,373 Park Forest, IL	Quote: A good racer is a good racer no matter where you put them. Biondo, Fletcher, Richardson, Rampy, gecker on and on. They have all won with regularity both ways. If you think a box makes it easier then I fail to understand why folks like this decide to race with no electronics for less money. Logic would dictate if that the above statement were true you would not be a very smart person to race for less money in no box. After all the box makes a mediocre racer better, imagine what it can do if you are good X100 Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red. If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all. "Everybody funny, now you funny too."

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911249 01/23/11 06:17 PM 01/23/11 06:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona J johnnyrotten OP mopar
johnnyrotten OP mopar J Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona	Let me clarify something before the crying and pissing match continues, The series proposed is a quick 32,door car,12.99 and quicker, including Lh steer roadsters. No crossover/crosstalk is the only other rule. I want to see a no box AND box class to have a more level playing field for BOTH classes. How are the car counts split at all your local tracks? Here it's at least 3 to 1 no box to box cars. How many times is a guy going to get double oo'd in a no box car before he stays home or goes fishing? For me, maybe two. And as far as the box not making you a better LEAVER, pull them out for the next super cat race and see how it goes.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911250 01/23/11 06:35 PM 01/23/11 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas	So a Q32 race with a 12.99 cut off.... Hmmm where is that yawn smiley As for removing the box in a .90 stuff. As long as no one has one I am all in. I ran no box for a number of years. Just as we work hard to get the car to react as quickly as possible to carry as much delay as possible we can do the same thing to slow it down and react slower. If you belive the box makes you better then why the heck dont you have one? I am sure you spend plenty of money on other things to make your race program better. So if this mystery box makes you better then why dont you have one? I really dont understand the logic to this.... "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911251 01/23/11 06:35 PM 01/23/11 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,826 las vegas 70AARcuda master
70AARcuda master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,826 las vegas	Quote: Let me clarify something before the crying and pissing match continues, The series proposed is a quick 32,door car,12.99 and quicker, including Lh steer roadsters. No crossover/crosstalk is the only other rule. I want to see a no box AND box class to have a more level playing field for BOTH classes. How are the car counts split at all your local tracks? Here it's at least 3 to 1 no box to box cars. How many times is a guy going to get double oo'd in a no box car before he stays home or goes fishing? For me, maybe two. And as far as the box not making you a better LEAVER, pull them out for the next super cat race and see how it goes. agree...there should be two different brackets. Tony 70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: slantzilla] #911252 01/23/11 08:52 PM 01/23/11 08:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,000 Anoka County, MN L Leigh master
Leigh master L Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,000 Anoka County, MN	Quote: Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red. If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all. Finally, someone who gets it.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911253 01/23/11 08:52 PM 01/23/11 08:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona J johnnyrotten OP mopar
johnnyrotten OP mopar J Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona	The logic is I am trying to help my local track grow or at least maintain the car counts. The sportsman and pro guys that don't install electronics will go somewhere else. I will probably install a delay box and go for it. But others don't have the interest or resources to do so. Sorry for not being selfish and only caring about myself I don't think the 12.99 matters, last quick 32 had about a 10.2 bump. About 15 of those were dragsters, so the door car thing splits that up, but the bulk of the cars left out were no box guys. There were only 40-50 guys left with nothing to do.

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911254 01/23/11 08:55 PM 01/23/11 08:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona J johnnyrotten OP mopar
johnnyrotten OP mopar J Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 479 Tucson, Arizona	Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red. If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all. Really??? Leaving off the flash of a top bulb doesn't help? And the double hit and bumpdown stuff is all to tune the car!!

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: johnnyrotten] #911255 01/23/11 08:58 PM 01/23/11 08:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas Al_Alguire I Live Here
Al_Alguire I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 19,592 Las Vegas	I hear ya brother..Just because you dont have a box does not mean they cannot run. We have a couple of guys here locally that run S/Pro with no box and do extremely well(Jesse Adams and Danny Cole come to mind). Both finished well up in the S/P points last year. Heck Jesse IIRC was top three in Pro and S/P. With the changes you have had at SIR who knows what will happen. I think you may find as things unfold that you will begin to attract racers just out of curiousity. Being that it is now IHRA I think some will come just to see how thier shows are run after hearing about it from others. I know once I get relocated to Vegas I will be going down to Tucson to check it out. As for the last part. EVERY driver I know who does well in Pro is not watching bulbs. They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car. I dont know anyone who consistenly goes rounds who is watching all three. Just my "I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know." "It's never wrong to do the right thing"

Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! [Re: babarracuda] #911256 01/23/11 09:12 PM 01/23/11 09:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 184 Central Coast P Plumcrazyracing member
Plumcrazyracing member P Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 184 Central Coast	Quote: I have a friend who has been foot brake bracket racing for almost 20 years. His average reaction time is .02. He won the heritage series in the 10.60 class a couple of years ago and he won all but one race. Typically he dials his car in to run 10.58-10.59 and lifts if he is ahead. he also runs 2 classes one with a .4 tree and the other with a .5 tree. He change front tires from small to big to get his reaction time for each class. In this old man's opinion delay boxes are for people who won't or can't practice enough to get their reactions consistant Does this particular racer run a ford Mustang? Is his name Al Ross aka Al McGuiness? If so, he did not win the Heritage series by foot braking! He runs a transbrake in both of the classes you mention. Yes he practices weekly in his garage and is deadly consistent off the button. Steve

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