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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: JohnRR]
#889324
12/29/10 04:19 PM
12/29/10 04:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) .... We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.
 Would that include making it ok to jack up a VIN tag and body stampings and driving a fresh body under them ?
Did you somehow miss this part of my post?
"I want to make something perfectly clear. Nowhere have I ever stated that criminal, deceptive or manipulative practices should be allowed in this Hobby or anywhere else!!"
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: JohnRR]
#889325
12/29/10 04:33 PM
12/29/10 04:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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yes john. that is exactly what they are trying to "change the laws governing the VIN program" what other reason would there be?
if not,then by all means,clarify.....i'm curious.
i mean,there cannot be a simpler law on any books,in any state,anywhere the this.
um,car left the factory,with a VIN tag and body numbers stamped in it.period,end of story.
so what is there to "work to change"? sorry folks,but,if you have a rust bucket rare car,that is too rusty to save,than it's dead and gone. salvage what parts you can,or fix it. just because you are too lazy to fix it,or just want to break the law,there is no justification. again,it's the law......
Last edited by superbyrd; 12/29/10 04:44 PM.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Iceman01]
#889327
12/29/10 05:08 PM
12/29/10 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,341
Crook County, ILL
Mastershake340
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,341
Crook County, ILL
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Quote:
Get real folks, and let's get back to the OP's question. Should Barry have the right to withhold the info/docs from the OP? Is that really what the folks who provided all that info/docs to Barry thought would happen when they gave it to him for "safekeeping"? Or did they expect that a true hobbyist could always be expected to take the high road and reunite those docs with the car they belong to?
Any paperwork that concerns a particular car belongs to that car. We have criticized ebay vendors who try to profit by selling broadcast sheets for big bucks, but at least if one being sold is for your car, you can obtain it if you fork out the greedy seller's price to buy it, rather than being told to go pound sand.
If I find a broadcast sheet or dealership paperwork for a particular car I didn't own, and sent it to someone to keep and return to the car's owner if said person could ever be located, and later found out that the owner was found, but that he wasn't given the paperwork because the "keeper" didn't like that person, I would be furious.
From what I've learned from this long thread, if I do find paperwork, I will keep it and try to find the owner myself. I will make the info available to various people who keep track of such things, and tell them to put the owner in touch with me if he turns up, but I wouldn't part with the actual paperwork unless I'm sending it to the cars owner. Years ago when he ran the T/A registry, Jeff Coe put me in touch with the owner of the T/A that I had bcs's for, and I gladly mailed the sheets to the owner no charge, it's no big deal to have a registry act as a middleman instead of actually taking possession of the documents, so that is what should happen.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889329
12/29/10 05:44 PM
12/29/10 05:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
Golden-Arm
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
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i've read the topic in it's entirety. i see valid points of view from both sides. i have no real ideas about how it went so bad, so fast. i will opine one thing though. when people submit build sheets, certi-cards, owners manuals, copies of old titles etc., to any "authority" who collects them for return to known rightful owners, then without question, those items should be returned, to those owners. if you like or "trust" someone, shouldnt be an issue. there was an implied trust, the middleman would do the "right thing", when he received items, not belonging to his car. if anyone who is supposed to reunite owners and items, decides for whatever reason, he wont reunite a lawful owner, with forwarded items, he's broken a trust. if you hate the person, for whatever reason, the sometimes unpleasant reality is, as the lawful owner, the stuff should go to him. refusing to do so, may cause others, to not forward stuff they find, for fear it wont be forwarded. as much as you might hate to do it, you should give the person his stuff, even if it's only copies of it. and for the record, i dont know any of the parties involved in this snafu here, i'm just relating, i'd be hesitant to hand over stuff i've found, if i knew the middleman might not actually deliver the stuff i gave him. 
"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889330
12/29/10 05:46 PM
12/29/10 05:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 711
San Francisco
dilvoy
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 711
San Francisco
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Quote:
Man, I had no idea this was such a righteous, law-abiding crowd!
But the volume of comments has made it difficult for me to remember who the good guys and bad guys are. Just to help me seperate the wheat from the chaff, could you no longer post to this topic if you have ever done any of the following;
cheated on your wife
lied to your boss
faked a time card
stolen from your employer
cheated on your taxes
cheated on a test in school
exaggerated a resume
fudged an expense report
I guess I could think of others, but this will be sufficient for this old codger to tell the cowboys from the indians.
The Cowboys are the bad guys, right?
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: nomore65BelvJim]
#889332
12/29/10 05:52 PM
12/29/10 05:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,966
Wendy, I'm home.
dstryr
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,966
Wendy, I'm home.
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Quote:
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Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag.
A fender tag is not a part of the car so its an inappropriate comparison. Sure it is.
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Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto.
So if its "too rusted" how do you know a "reproduction" tag will be correct?What if it does look like crap but is still legible?
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I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa. 
So if you agree that the "reproduction" tags will be passed off as originals down the road arent you just supporting a future fraudulent act by not making it obvious that it is a non-original tag? Perhaps some "extra stamping" that would make it plain to a blind man that it was in fact not the original? Make it obvious by dimension or addition of text or code. Easy enough.
Jim, My post was specific to 1Wild's question about a legitimate reason as to why someone would want to reproduce a tag.
Read my response only in the context of 1Wild's question. It IS part of the car. I am not advocating fakes or reproductions. I said that I don't agree with the assertion that it is ALWAYS about $$. 
dstryr, since 1986.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889333
12/29/10 06:09 PM
12/29/10 06:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,212
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,212
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
Quote:
6 pages of posts and yet no responses hardly to my questions that originaly started this topic. it is more a Barry aginst Dave post now. 
Hello Dave. My initial post WAS in response to your ordeal. I was trying to convey how rudely you were treated by someone who has no more authority than you or anyone else who has posted here.
I want to make something perfectly clear. Nowhere have I ever stated that criminal, deceptive or manipulative practices should be allowed in this Hobby or anywhere else!! My only point was that these guys who go around verifying and certifying your automobiles, have no more credibility than the "Customers" they charge to "validate" their cars. They are a perfect parallel comparison to the "Clown" in the Holiday Inn Express commercials.
For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) we are a branch/extension of the Automobile Manufactures Association, a Licensed vendor to reproduce Federal VIN Labels for the Automobile manufacturers, a Licensed and Certified OE label supplier for CODA Electric Cars and a preferred vendor for almost every Major Insurance Company. We also work with Federal Agencies as they relate to the Automotive Industry. We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.
Now I know that we pale in comparison to Barry and Galen when it comes to credentials but we are certainly trying to expand our boundaries. In response to people like "SomeCarGuy" who try and group us as some type of illegitimate Company......think whatever you want! I couldn't care less if you assume we have "fake cars" or what ever else a person with an IQ of room temperature thinks. They are all Fake! Especially the four door Valiant. It use to be a HEMI Dart but we made it into a Slant Six. I must admit that guy is a genius....he figured it out! I suggest that he continue to "go down to the local jail" hang out with the "scummy guys" while us honest Authorized and Certified people handle the big stuff! Of course I could do like the "other guys" and use my "Authority" to contact my friends/agencies and make sure that people like "SomeCarGuy" are up to speed in the car he is driving somewhere in Kentucky! (You're not as hidden as you think! We know who you are.)   
(Sorry for using the last part of the post to go off topic Dave! Happy Holidays!!) 
Little kids get upset when adults tell them they can't do whatever they want. We obviously have some guys on here that want to do whatever they want and think anybody that has the audacity to question their motives must be out to ruin their lives by infringing on their right to do anything and everything that they deem acceptable.
Go ahead and ask the "authorities" if you can just change whatever you please on any car. Not just fender tags, but rebodies, characters in VIN numbers, you name it. You'll find out that we have laws for a reason, even if you feel those laws infringe on your "right" to do whatever you want to do. The fender tags may be a "gray area" that you and other like minded feel is OK to play with.
Getting upset when people in the hobby point out the problems w/ fake tags, BC sheets, or rebodied cars is childish. Making a villian out of somebody that dares to attempt to curb the problem with forged stuff is pretty telling of your true character and intentions in the hobby.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: superbyrd]
#889334
12/29/10 06:19 PM
12/29/10 06:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Where's the poll for re-bodied cars with real or "fake" tags?
i would love to see if dayclona is stupid enough to take a rebodied car to the DMV and tell them that he swapped the VIN tag off another car. because,if he doesn't tell it. well,than he is just a fraud. or,you don't tell it,and your still a fraud. unless the laws of every state in the united states,doesn't apply to you....
If you "fudged" a little on your 1040 tax form, do you tell the IRS?,...if you make some bucks under the table, do you report it to the IRS,...if you speed over the posted limit, do you turn yourself into the local police....whether you like/dislike re-bodies in the hobby, fake fender tags, repro fender tags, repro VIN's, repro BS, window stickers, etc.....they have been in the hobby and will continue, regardless of anyones attempts to thwat it,....not all rebodies are done as an attempt to "turn out" a vehicle for profit
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Golden-Arm]
#889335
12/29/10 06:24 PM
12/29/10 06:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
...if anyone who is supposed to reunite owners and items, decides for whatever reason, he wont reunite a lawful owner, with forwarded items, he's broken a trust...
...if you hate the person, for whatever reason, the sometimes unpleasant reality is, as the lawful owner, the stuff should go to him...
How is the person inquiring for the info/sheet the lawful owner. If I buy a fender off a parts car and you buy the rest of the car. Are you the lawful owner of the fender I posses.
How does the guy that has the info know the inquiring person actually owns the car short of personally inspecting every car being inquired about. So there has to be some mutual trust between the two parties.
It seems most of the people that donate info to a registry want the info reunited with the car. What if it was suspect that the info would not be reunited the actual car?
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: TONY_DAGOSTINO]
#889336
12/29/10 06:32 PM
12/29/10 06:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
so dave
i recall in a prior thread seeing rolls of new broadcast sheets...
Hi Tony. I thought I would make Alan's year just a bit more "shocking" with another picture. Below is a post Alan made in the General section. Mr. G has actually become one of my favorite guys on this forum!
Quote from Alan: "MOST SHOCKING PICTURE: I believe it was posted by ECS...A picture of huge rolls of broadcast sheets just waiting to be made" 
You want rolls of BUILDSHEETS...we got em! You want them stacked in boxes....we got em! Here is a larger sample from what I posted earlier. I couldn't fit them all in so you will just have to be satisfied with the abbreviated photo! Sorry Barry!
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: dstryr]
#889337
12/29/10 06:40 PM
12/29/10 06:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
nomore65BelvJim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
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Quote:
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Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag.
A fender tag is not a part of the car so its an inappropriate comparison. Sure it is.
Quote:
Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto.
So if its "too rusted" how do you know a "reproduction" tag will be correct?What if it does look like crap but is still legible?
Quote:
I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.
So if you agree that the "reproduction" tags will be passed off as originals down the road arent you just supporting a future fraudulent act by not making it obvious that it is a non-original tag? Perhaps some "extra stamping" that would make it plain to a blind man that it was in fact not the original? Make it obvious by dimension or addition of text or code. Easy enough.
Jim, My post was specific to 1Wild's question about a legitimate reason as to why someone would want to reproduce a tag.
Read my response only in the context of 1Wild's question. It IS part of the car. I am not advocating fakes or reproductions. I said that I don't agree with the assertion that it is ALWAYS about $$.
I didnt think you were, just using your post since it covered the subject. (I dont like typing more than I have to!  )
IMO The fender tag is no more a "part of the car" than the VIN tag is. Both are used for identification purposes only. They have no bearing on the actual function or operation of the vehicle beyond identifying it so you can get plates(in the case of the VIN tag).
I dont see a problem with a duplicate fender tag when the original is fully legible and the duplicate is made so its obviously a duplicate. But if its fully readable just how bad can it look? 
If some sections are unreadable maybe a simple "UNK" (unknown) or some other symbol (that cannot be confused as a code) could be put in place of the missing data.
I agree it isnt ALWAYS about the money, at least not for the person who simply wants a fender tag to fill the two little screw holes. But what about the next guy, or the one after that?
If Chrysler hadnt kept such shoddy records I bet this subject wouldnt come up nearly as often.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889341
12/29/10 07:14 PM
12/29/10 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
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For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) .... We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.
Would that include making it ok to jack up a VIN tag and body stampings and driving a fresh body under them ?
Did you somehow miss this part of my post?
"I want to make something perfectly clear. Nowhere have I ever stated that criminal, deceptive or manipulative practices should be allowed in this Hobby or anywhere else!!"
No ,I saw that but some people do not consider jacking up the VIN and stamped body numbers and driving a fresh body under them as a criminal or fraudulent activity. I'm having a hard time figuring your stand that you are trying to ram down everyones throat.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: JohnRR]
#889342
12/29/10 07:18 PM
12/29/10 07:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,912
Anchorage, Alaska
Iceman01
Challenged
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Challenged
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,912
Anchorage, Alaska
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Quote:
... I'm having a hard time figuring your stand that you are trying to ram down everyones throat.
Again, let's go back to the OP's essential question. Is it ethical for Barry to withhold the info/docs? Fairly simple if we don't continue to get sidetracked...
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889343
12/29/10 07:20 PM
12/29/10 07:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Man, I had no idea this was such a righteous, law-abiding crowd!
But the volume of comments has made it difficult for me to remember who the good guys and bad guys are. Just to help me seperate the wheat from the chaff, could you no longer post to this topic if you have ever done any of the following;
cheated on your wife
lied to your boss
faked a time card
stolen from your employer
cheated on your taxes
cheated on a test in school
exaggerated a resume
fudged an expense report
I guess I could think of others, but this will be sufficient for this old codger to tell the cowboys from the indians.
You can twist things anyway you want to justify the fact that you have no problem with people committing fraud for profit, you remind me of a certain dimwit from Airzona that spews the same drivel.
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- I'll stick with my $125 insurance totaled A-body that I turned into a one-off restomod, and if I ever build another Mopar I think I'll weld in the fender tag holes and just make the underhood area that much cleaner...This stuff reminds me of a car show I was in and tried to be friendly to the only other A-body owner there and mentioned that you sure don't see many A-bodies in our area- He stuck his nose in the air and said, " No, and you sure don't see any big-block 4-speed cars (like his)"....I don't have much use for that Vette mentality either.. 
