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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: camastomcat]
#864198
11/27/10 01:06 PM
11/27/10 01:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
theclutcher
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
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patents offer little protection.
Make some subtle changes /improvements and you are good to go.
if you dont want your parts copied or improved, dont sell it, lease it with caveat stating ones ownership and nondisclosure.
Why you think teams are so secretive of thier work/development
Geez, guess I'm a low life if I duplicate a W8 port, (existing head, purchased by me), on a new set of raw castings... dont think so.
Move on to the next development step and stay ahead of the pack or get out of way.
once your idea is sold and exposed to world, its gone.
Last edited by theclutcher; 11/29/10 11:58 AM.
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: theclutcher]
#864199
11/27/10 01:45 PM
11/27/10 01:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
moderncylinder
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
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this is stupid,, ive ported 5 or so sets of pso heads in my life,,, and ive seen the head that et performance did for best machine,,, noone was the innovator of this heads other than koffel or brodix...
noone i know is copying their head,,, maybe you can look at a few things cary did and think it was a good idea... and incorporate it or whatever..
no way would i copy that intake port,, and duplicate it 100%,,,, it looked like a straight forward port anyways...
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: moderncylinder]
#864201
11/27/10 02:00 PM
11/27/10 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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i haven't seen where anyone said muscle motors bought a completely finished head from best machine. if they bought a rough casting and did all the finish machining, how would that be a bad thing. maybe Pete or Chuck can chime in on that and set the record straight, otherwise i wouldn't jump to any conclusions.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: camastomcat]
#864202
11/27/10 02:27 PM
11/27/10 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
That's what patents are for....but it sucks just the same and if it's true...it's BS.
True IF its in the USA but other countries dont have
to play with our rules... I've got 5 patents (I was
at Chrysler so they own them but with my name on them)...
to hire in I had to sign a waiver that they
would own any patents... the thing is IF they were to
SELL any patent I would get the royalties BUT they never
seel a patent... they TRADE patents with other companies
which doesnt allow the royalties to the person...
dont get me wrong I got money for MOST of my patents
but not like if I were to get royalties
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#864203
11/27/10 02:32 PM
11/27/10 02:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
theclutcher
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
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boy does that suck.
another way to exploit and bypass.
a word change and your idea is gone onto another entity.
so much for patent protection and screwing the little guy.
People wonder why employees keep thier mouth shut.
Corp america will just screw you in the end.
Last edited by theclutcher; 11/27/10 02:36 PM.
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#864204
11/27/10 02:35 PM
11/27/10 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,368
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,368
Las Vegas
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So credit for the PSO head needs to go to Koffel's or Brodix, given the logic that has been applied so far. Afterall were they not the ones to start this whole thing  If it were not for innovators like Best Machine out there making exisiting products better where would this hobby be? They are not the first to improve on a good design, that IMO was left for dead. They should be applauded for reviving it and then improving on it. So using the logic being applied here in this post how could someone get offended when the next guy comes along and makes the next improvement? If not for this continual improvement and refinement where would this sport be 
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: supercomp]
#864205
11/27/10 02:45 PM
11/27/10 02:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,714
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,714
Portage,michigan
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Quote:
Mm's website doesn't say they do the porting.
Muscle Motors now offers CNC porting for most all Mopar heads! We have programs for Mopar Performance, Edelbrock, Indy, B1, Stage V Hemi and Predator. CNC porting assures perfect, equal ports everytime. We have three different vendors for CNC work to assure prompt service. Please contact us for details!
I think they send most all of their stuff out.
I think Jeff at Modern does a lot of it
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: B3422W5]
#864206
11/27/10 03:47 PM
11/27/10 03:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Tampa Fl
kens avenger
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Tampa Fl
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This is funny  Hi Everyone
Remember in here some don't think you should have a Opinion.. sad fact..
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: moderncylinder]
#864207
11/27/10 05:13 PM
11/27/10 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
HEMIFRED
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
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Quote:
this is stupid,, ive ported 5 or so sets of pso heads in my life,,, and ive seen the head that et performance did for best machine,,, noone was the innovator of this heads other than koffel or brodix...
noone i know is copying their head,,, maybe you can look at a few things cary did and think it was a good idea... and incorporate it or whatever..
no way would i copy that intake port,, and duplicate it 100%,,,, it looked like a straight forward port anyways...
to a point in this sport everyone copies from someone. long gone are the days of true unique innovations in a part.
bracket racing kiled the need for that but that's another story
if anyone can buy them bottom line is what they perform like
when finished.
look what comp guys do with already availible parts like heads. chop them weld them and make them miles from what intended.
home of the
Sox and Martin Hemi Duster
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: HEMIFRED]
#864208
11/27/10 05:57 PM
11/27/10 05:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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My only point was, the PSO (pro stock option) head, was originally developed and offered by Koffel, same as any other B-1 head. The PSO and the TS head both, come from Brodix in raw form and need lots of work. At one time or another, Koffel has offered both heads in a finished form, so it is not like Best Machine offered the first ever finished PSO heads. And as such, I can't see where they could get upset by anyone else offereing a PSO head................Now if someone else, bought a PSO head from Best, had it digitized and offers the exact program, that might be another matter, but just to be upset that someone else offers the heads, they have no grounds for that, as I see it.
Monte
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#864209
11/27/10 08:07 PM
11/27/10 08:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,015
Down South
DaKuda
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,015
Down South
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Quote:
My only point was, the PSO (pro stock option) head, was originally developed and offered by Koffel, same as any other B-1 head. The PSO and the TS head both, come from Brodix in raw form and need lots of work. At one time or another, Koffel has offered both heads in a finished form, so it is not like Best Machine offered the first ever finished PSO heads. And as such, I can't see where they could get upset by anyone else offereing a PSO head................Now if someone else, bought a PSO head from Best, had it digitized and offers the exact program, that might be another matter, but just to be upset that someone else offers the heads, they have no grounds for that, as I see it.
Monte
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#864210
11/27/10 08:13 PM
11/27/10 08:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
So credit for the PSO head needs to go to Koffel's or Brodix, given the logic that has been applied so far. Afterall were they not the ones to start this whole thing
If it were not for innovators like Best Machine out there making exisiting products better where would this hobby be? They are not the first to improve on a good design, that IMO was left for dead. They should be applauded for reviving it and then improving on it.
So using the logic being applied here in this post how could someone get offended when the next guy comes along and makes the next improvement? If not for this continual improvement and refinement where would this sport be
This is exactly Mopar is at the back of the pack.. 
Too much chest pumping..  Not enough sharing R&D info for the better product in the long run. 
Who is Mike Duke anyway.. 
Chris.. 
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE]
#864213
11/27/10 10:21 PM
11/27/10 10:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
My only point was, the PSO (pro stock option) head, was originally developed and offered by Koffel, same as any other B-1 head. The PSO and the TS head both, come from Brodix in raw form and need lots of work. At one time or another, Koffel has offered both heads in a finished form
Quote:
Wrong again Monte, the PSO head is a raw casting not developed, thats up to the user. And yes we we the frist to offer the casting finish and runable out of the box. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you post wrong info. Yes someone did buy are heads and took them to shop to have them checked out, wonder why? but that realy is a compliment to us, so thanks.
so your saying Koffel never offered the PSO head so it could be bolted on an engine and run?
f that's the case then that would seem the only information that's questionable.
i still don't understand all the chest thumping here. it's not like your the first to develop the PSO head. your accomplishments with it seem very good and for that you should get credit, but maybe the guys from Wayne County should be upset that you worked on that casting going by your logic. after all, they did it long before you were ever a part of best machine.
i think the continual R&D from anyone to make a product better is a good thing in the long run, as long as it's not done to have it offshore produced and then whored out. if muscle moters took your design to the next level, that would be a good thing. do you even know what they did with the port design? apparently even modern cylinder doesn't think your port is anything super special after reading his thoughts.
i don't really have any dog in this argument/debate, but it does seem like it's more ego driven than anything else.
hopefully you can take that head to the next level, if that's possible.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: moparniac]
#864214
11/27/10 10:23 PM
11/27/10 10:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
sixpakdodge
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Pete are you pretty much saying you took the blank head and made it what it is and now someone is taking what you created to copy/sell right out! if so I can see why this would make someone upset 
I totally agree!
When you type B1 PSO into Google, look what pops up first
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/muscle-mike-blog/115-the-little-engine-that-could.html
Sorta says MM had made their own CNC port???? When Chuck stated MM purchased a set from them, I am a little confused as to why, since they supposedly have their own port/head.......Sounds a little fishy.
such a shame.... someone takes the time to develop something and it just gets copied and re-sold.... im sure the port is .0025 different somewhere. so shady! there should be a law if it even remotley resembles the original product you should get jail time or something
Using this theory, practically everyone who has made aluminum heads will go to jail since they all resemble the oem iron head port shape, design, etc.
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: Performance Only]
#864215
11/27/10 11:23 PM
11/27/10 11:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
My only point was, the PSO (pro stock option) head, was originally developed and offered by Koffel, same as any other B-1 head. The PSO and the TS head both, come from Brodix in raw form and need lots of work. At one time or another, Koffel has offered both heads in a finished form
Quote:
Wrong again Monte, the PSO head is a raw casting not developed, thats up to the user. And yes we we the frist to offer the casting finish and runable out of the box. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you post wrong info. Yes someone did buy are heads and took them to shop to have them checked out, wonder why? but that realy is a compliment to us, so thanks.
so your saying Koffel never offered the PSO head so it could be bolted on an engine and run?
f that's the case then that would seem the only information that's questionable.
i still don't understand all the chest thumping here. it's not like your the first to develop the PSO head. your accomplishments with it seem very good and for that you should get credit, but maybe the guys from Wayne County should be upset that you worked on that casting going by your logic. after all, they did it long before you were ever a part of best machine.
i think the continual R&D from anyone to make a product better is a good thing in the long run, as long as it's not done to have it offshore produced and then whored out. if muscle moters took your design to the next level, that would be a good thing. do you even know what they did with the port design? apparently even modern cylinder doesn't think your port is anything super special after reading his thoughts.
i don't really have any dog in this argument/debate, but it does seem like it's more ego driven than anything else.
hopefully you can take that head to the next level, if that's possible.
 Thank You Dan..
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#864216
11/27/10 11:38 PM
11/27/10 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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I've done some 4v quad stuff for a few years now, it's big down here in Glamis and Dumont dunes.
Me and a guy that builds these engines got together and did alot of R&D on one of his customers engines having me do the heads and picking lobs for the cams.
We worked on this on and off for a little over 2 years.
Finally ended up with a win at 4 stroke wars taking top 4 stroke OPEN! This was a 550 honda, NOS on alky.
After that win, his customer took the engine to a competitor and wanted them to disect it and make it better as we were moving on to a Yamaha for the same class.
Well, turns out they liked the ports I did so much they digitized them and now offer them to the public. This guy calls me and asks me if I am the one that did this head, and I tell him yes why? He said I just wanted to know because we heard a Car guy developed the ports and that it was you. I said yeah must be...he tells me they have a cnc head that is supposed to be the same as mine.
So they bring it to me, and it flowed within 1% of my head from bottom to top. And the shape did match mine as well as the chamber work I did.
I was like "how cool is this"!! But if it had taken work away from me I might not have been so joyfull!
All in the eye of the beholder I guess.
By the way, our Yamaha won again 2 years later against quads that were supposedly running our Honda head. So that was pretty cool!
Sorry if this is not on topic but I understand both being upset and flattered when it comes to people copying your work. Just makes you work harder to beat them with your old $hit!!
Brian Hafliger
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Re: PSO Heads
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#864217
11/27/10 11:47 PM
11/27/10 11:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 336
Creston, Iowa
340man4ever
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 336
Creston, Iowa
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....goes on in business all the time...its called competition The best will always raise the bar....continually this thread is the exact reason why I still run 915 iron heads and purple shaft cams....no one will want to copy me lol................
Curator at Adams County Speed Shop
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