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Ongoing pushrod cup oiling problem. UPDATE!!!
#858589
11/20/10 04:54 PM
11/20/10 04:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Im still fighting a pushrod cup oiling issue. Ive had 3 sets of rockers and 4 sets of pushrods on this motor, 440 with stock castings. First set of rockers are Dove rockers which are actually for B1-BS heads, but I swapped the Is for Es and the geometry was actually pretty good. I had 3 sets of pushrods in the motor with those rockers, all 3 different lengths. The first 2 set of pushrods would burn cups after a 50-100 miles or so. When I installed the last set of pushrods, banana grooved the shafts also. Thought I had the problem whipped. Took the VC's off after a few hundred miles and the pushrods, just below the cup was blued on most of the rods. Checked the oil supply to the cups with the motor running and very little oil was running down the pushrods. Put a set of stock adjustable rockers on and it alot of oil to the cups. You could see the oil swirl around the pushrods as the motor ran. But, the ratio worked out to be 1.39, so off they went. Now I have set of Hughes rockers on it, the older blue ones, made by Dove..New set of pushrods, different shafts, studs in the oil supply holes and almost no oil to the cups. The tips are oiling great just not the cups. What the flip is going on? The two sets of alumimum rockers have the oil feed hole for the cup in different places, so now I dont think it was an incorrect feed location on the first set of Doves. Oil holes in the shafts are down as they should be. I have spacers between the rockers thinking that maybe they were losing supply with the springs. Any ideas?? Thanks 
Last edited by Von; 11/23/10 01:54 AM.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing pushrod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Von]
#858591
11/20/10 06:46 PM
11/20/10 06:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,505
TN
SCATPACK 1
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,505
TN
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I just looked at the rocker shaft on my Harland Sharp set up and they have small oil holes on top and on the bottom too. The Harland Rockers are roller rockers. Are the Doves rollers or are they just aluminum rockers? What oil holes do the rockers have to oil the cups? Do they direct the oil at the adjustor ball when the valve is closed or is it hitting when the valve is somewhere in its lift cycle? Have you tried checking it with an oil pump priming rod or just when it is running. Have you checked to see how much clearance between the rocker shaft and the hod down studs?
Old Geezer Racing
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Re: Ongoing pushrod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Von]
#858592
11/20/10 06:58 PM
11/20/10 06:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
HEMIFRED
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
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HOW MUCH ROOM BETWEEN THE ROCKER AND CUP?
how many threads of the adjusters are showing ?sometimes due to the design of the rocker and location of any oiling holes in them not enough space prevents oil from getting to the adjuster
home of the
Sox and Martin Hemi Duster
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Re: Ongoing pushrod cup oiling problem.
[Re: HEMIFRED]
#858594
11/20/10 10:10 PM
11/20/10 10:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
HOW MUCH ROOM BETWEEN THE ROCKER AND CUP?
how many threads of the adjusters are showing ?sometimes due to the design of the rocker and location of any oiling holes in them not enough space prevents oil from getting to the adjuster
Thread showing is not the issue...i'll bet my stones on that. With the first set of rockers I had 4.5 threads, 1.5 threads and 2.5 with different pushrods. Made no difference.
Ive got 2.5 thread showing at the moment, but the adjusters are longer than the usual adjuster. Im not buying another set of pushrods to use with the correct adjusters...it isnt the problem..see above.
It does not look like oil is even coming out of the back (cup side of the rocker). I cant see oil running down the back side of the rocker at all.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing pushrod cup oiling problem.
[Re: SCATPACK 1]
#858595
11/20/10 10:17 PM
11/20/10 10:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
I. Are the Doves rollers or are they just aluminum rockers? What oil holes do the rockers have to oil the cups? Do they direct the oil at the adjustor ball when the valve is closed or is it hitting when the valve is somewhere in its lift cycle? Have you tried checking it with an oil pump priming rod or just when it is running. Have you checked to see how much clearance between the rocker shaft and the hod down studs?
The Doves are bushed, not roller on the shaft. I have no clue where the oil is directed...it doesnt have any oil to direct....lol
I havent tried with a priming rod...dont see that it would be any different.
As far as clearance between the studs and rocker shaft, havent checked. 2 different shafts, 2 different sets of hold downs, bolt, studs, etc. no change in the oil supply.
The only time it has oiled was with the stock adjustables and it oiled fine and dandy...with the same shafts, bolts, etc that it wouldnt oil with the first set of Dove rockers....
So, it has nothing to do with threads showing, distance between adjuster and cup. Im thinking it almost has to be the rockers themselves?? 
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Hemiroid]
#858598
11/21/10 12:43 AM
11/21/10 12:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
Are you sure you have a adequate supply of oil from the #4 cam bearing? Possibly a restriction somewhere? Maybe spun the cam bearing?
If it oils enough through the block and head, maybe no oil is getting by the hold down fastener? Is it a stud or the factory bolt?
I have no idea if it has adequate supply? Id think it might as it oiled fine with the stock adjustable rockers. How do you measure that? I dont think the bearing is spun. The cam journals in this block are WAAY tight with fresh bearings. Machinist scraped the bearings to fit the cam...I paid him to machine the block, but as usual, took it in the shorts 
As far as fasteners, right now it has studs in the feed holes...
On a side note, do you tighten the stud till it stops or ??
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: emarine01]
#858599
11/21/10 12:51 AM
11/21/10 12:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
How much oil is there up in the head? is a lot of oil bleeding from the rocker to shaft clearance? how much rocker side clearance? Whats the engine oil pressure? Is the cam grooved for oiling or just the drilled holes? I found by tightening up the rocker side clearance to .008 from .015 made a big difference, it even raised the hot idle oil pressure 5 lbs
Not much oil to the head, at least it doesnt look like much?? No oil is bleeding by the rockers. Side clearance is .012-.025. Cam is not grooved.
Oil pressure is 65 hot.
I had springs on the shaft and went to spacers with different rockers and it made no difference.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Twostick]
#858602
11/21/10 02:16 AM
11/21/10 02:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
You said they're bushed. Is there a hole in the bushing and does it line up with a hole in the rocker arm? Is there a passage in the arm and is it clear? Seems odd that you would get 2 sets of rockers with the same flaw unless they are for oil thru push rod only.
Kevin
I said bushed, but was meaning bushed as opposed to a full roller set up, such as HS. They do not have a press in bushing. All the passage ways are clear and free.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Von]
#858603
11/21/10 02:20 AM
11/21/10 02:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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BTW, I checked the passage way on both heads a while back and did not find any restrictions.
Before buying another set of rockers, what would be a good way to determine if I have sufficient flow to the top end? A while back I took the bolt out of the feed hole on the drivers side, cranked the motor (coil wire off) and oil shot out of it pretty high, dont remember how high, but a foot or so.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Von]
#858604
11/21/10 02:28 AM
11/21/10 02:28 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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missed the the post about the rocker passage. oops
If it shot oil that far I would say that is lots. Takes volume to do that.
Do your lifters have oil holes for oil thru push rods? Pushrods are cheaper than rockers.
Kevin
Last edited by Twostick; 11/21/10 02:35 AM.
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Re: Ongoing push rod cup oiling problem.
[Re: Von]
#858606
11/21/10 02:40 AM
11/21/10 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
BTW, I checked the passage way on both heads a while back and did not find any restrictions.
Before buying another set of rockers, what would be a good way to determine if I have sufficient flow to the top end? A while back I took the bolt out of the feed hole on the drivers side, cranked the motor (coil wire off) and oil shot out of it pretty high, dont remember how high, but a foot or so.
Well, it's really a pretty simple process of elimination. If you remove the stud from the oiling pedestal and you see a foot tall shot of oil shoot out then you know you're getting a supply of oil from the cam and through the block/head passages.
The next thing to check is if you remove the stud and replace it with a bolt does it change anything? Is the o.d. of the stud bigger than the o.d. of the bolt where the threads end? Also need to check the shaft holes to make sure they're all open and that there's no obstructions inside.
Also I saw you mention that it's not possible that the amount of adjuster out of the rocker is causing a problem. I disagree as I've seen this cause the exact failures you're encountering. If the adjuster is too long out of the bottom it can fling the oil off before it ever makes it to the cup. I know it seems impossible but it happens. It's kind of rocker specific as different rockers oil differently. Some will provide enough oil no matter how long the adjuster, and others will smoke cups if the length isn't perfect.
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