|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: MIKES_DUSTER]
#817503
09/29/10 05:55 PM
09/29/10 05:55 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
I rate E85 best due to the success of board members here and my experience with gas and methanol. Gas is the highest priced, makes it tough to keep the car cool by comparison, and is less consistent with weather changes.
Methanol is the best of the three for power production. You also use 2.2 times as much of it. For last weekend I put three runs on the car and used about five gallons between the warm up and the runs. Cost is about 3.55 a gallon here.
E85 is the cheapest, due to government subsidy and only using 1.4 times as much as gas. At about $2 a gallon you can't beat the price.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: MegaDart]
#817508
09/29/10 08:34 PM
09/29/10 08:34 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
|
 I agree with everything posted, so far. Alcohol is more consistant than gas, changes less with weather changes, runs cooler, and typically makes more power than gas. There are a few operational things to do with alky, but if everything is done right, the maintenance isn't a big issue. IMO, E85 is between methanol and gas. Both in performance, changes with weather, and running cooler. But from my experience, E85 is the least expensive when the day is done. Some setups are different and will vary in how much fuel you use. And the cost of each fuel differs by location, so you have to do the math yourself. Although each fuel depends on the tuneup, methanol volume use will depend on the setup a large amount. Some racers are just putting too much alky down the motor in the pits, the return road, and during warm up; but no matter how you do it methanol needs more fuel volume down the track. For example: Quote:
This is my fuel cost comparison for a typical 5 passes down the 1/4 mile plus warm up time/fuel.
My 511 drinks some fuel, and a smaller motor should use less.
110 Gas: (5 passes x 0.7 gal/pass + 0.5 warmup) x $7.75/gallon = $31
Methanol:(5 passes x 1.5 gal/pass + 1.0 warmup) x $2.70/gallon = $23
Pump E85:(5 passes x 1.0 gal/pass + 0.5 warmup) x $2.55/gallon = $14
On a cool day, I have seen guys burning lots of methanol to warm up their motors, even between passes. So that 1.0 gallons is minimum for methanol, IMO. And I have seen reports around the country selling E85 for $1.99/gallon. But it is more expensive in Maryland.
http://e85prices.com/
Cheap hot rod fuel for high compression engines. Mine is 13.5 CR.
So if you make 150 passes per year, that should save at least $500/year compared to race gas.
If you switch to methanol, it might take you more to get the right approach and then you will be fine as long as you do your homework. E85 takes less brain power to switch from gas, but will not have the same benefits. But E85 is always the least expensive for a high compression race engine.
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: MegaDart]
#817509
09/29/10 08:49 PM
09/29/10 08:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Quote:
Good luck finding E85 around here?? I'll stick with alky. I think the 2.2 ratio is gas carb to alky injection cause there's no way I use that much more with my alky carb. 1.00 gal per 1/8th mile run, 1.5gal per 1/4mile run.
Injectors run very fat at idle, as I'm sure you know. Stoichiometric for alky methanol is 5.5? gas is about 12.5. That works out to 2.27 times more methanol. Your results may vary 
I believe i was off on how much I used on those three passes. I remember opening a second jug,,,,,,,,,,it was cool up here!
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: gregsdart]
#817510
09/29/10 09:13 PM
09/29/10 09:13 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,015
Down South
DaKuda
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,015
Down South
|
My Cuda went 7.09 on race gas. Did NOTHING but change to Alcohol and it ran 6.71 EVERY pass. 100 degree heat or on a cool night. Alky all the way.
Last edited by DaKuda; 09/29/10 10:39 PM.
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: DaKuda]
#817511
09/29/10 09:26 PM
09/29/10 09:26 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
QWK_ENUF
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
|
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
WAXER
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: QWK_ENUF]
#817512
09/29/10 11:39 PM
09/29/10 11:39 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
|
Quote:
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
Ya, what pump? Race gas by me ( that's accross the street from the track and at the track ), is $7.00 a gallon. E85 by me ( if you can find it ) is $2.70 a gallon. The fifference per gallon is $4.30. If you use 100 gallons of fuel a year racing, you would save $430. To buy that new carb with the green jet blocks and boosters your looking at over $1000. Ad another $400 to up grade your fuel system to handle the additional volume and be ethanol compatible, and you have an easy $1400 invested in just the peripherals ( no mods to the motor internals ). Now $430 in fuel savings goes in to $1400 a little over 3 times, so in a little over three years you might break even, if you don't break anything else. Other comments on this thread: Running more advance doesn't mean more power. Octane rating for E85 bounces around from 95 - 106, depending on where you buy it or who you talk to. Race gas by me is 110 ( did I mention I can buy it accross the street from the track ). If you consider that detonation is the limiting factor to making power, and that octane rating relates to detonation limits, there really is no gain here. Finally, You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol ). Unfortunately, all that heat energy doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% of that 10% goes out the tail pipe. another 30% goes to the cooling system. That leaves 25% to make power. 25% of 10% = 2.5% power gain with STRAIGHT Ethanol. E85 will be something less than that. A far cry from the 5% previously stated. I'm not selling anything. Just stating the facts - as I and others see them.
Last edited by Crizila; 09/30/10 11:06 AM.
Fastest 300
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: Crizila]
#817513
09/30/10 12:23 AM
09/30/10 12:23 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
Ya, what pump? Race gas by me ( that's accross the street from the track and at the track ), is $7.00 a gallon. E85 by me ( if you can find it ) is $2.70 a gallon. The fifference per gallon is $4.30. If you use 100 gallons of fuel a year racing, you would save $430. To buy that new carb with the green jet blocks and boosters your looking at over $1000. Ad another $400 to up grade your fuel system to handle the additional volume and be methanol compatible, and you have an easy $1400 invested in just the peripherals ( no mods to the motor internals ). Now $430 in fuel savings goes in to $1400 a little over 3 times, so in a little over three years you might break even, if you don't break anything else. Other comments on this thread: Running more advance doesn't mean more power. Octane rating for E85 bounces around from 95 - 106, depending on where you buy it or who you talk to. Race gas by me is 110 ( did I mention I can buy it accross the street from the track ). If you consider that detonation is the limiting factor to making power, and that octane rating relates to detonation limits, there really is no gain here. Finally, You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol ). Unfortunately, all that heat energy doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% of that 10% goes out the tail pipe. another 30% goes to the cooling system. That leaves 25% to make power. 25% of 10% = 2.5% power gain with STRAIGHT Ethanol. E85 will be something less than that. A far cry from the 5% previously stated. I'm not selling anything. Just stating the facts - as I and others see them.
I believe methanol has a octane rating of around 120, that's more than any race gas.
E85 has ethanol in it. 
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: MIKES_DUSTER]
#817514
09/30/10 01:02 AM
09/30/10 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
|
Man you guys pay a lot for alcohol, I've been buying it around here for $2.00 a gallon (55 gallon drums for $105) for the past two years.
This past weekend my wife and I both raced our cudas running alcohol - warm up both, two time trials and 4 round each on 20 gallons. All 1/4 miles passes, so that's like 14 passes. After the last pass we keep the temp up and load them up good and warm (i like them to be 180) so it evaporates all the alcohol out of the oil. I run synthetic oil and don't change it all year, just change and inspect oil filter 2 times a year. We put 200 to 300 passes on the cars each year. So don't believe all the negative stuff you hear from guys that don't run alcohol.
Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987 71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide 68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys Moparts discount code on WIX - moparts www.Filter1.com
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: Challenger 1]
#817516
09/30/10 01:20 AM
09/30/10 01:20 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
|
Even though it seems to be a common claim, I have NEVER seen an engine with a carb, make more power on the dyno, with alky over race gas, NEVER. As far as running cooler, I have never had a heating issue, so that is not a plus for me and a properly tuned gas carb, does not produce huge swings in ET, based on small weather changes, in my experience. The stuff stinks, it wrecks your parts and you have to use a ton more of it. I love blown motors on alky, but you could not run fast enough to give me an alky car with a carb.
I have had no personal experience with E-85, so I can't make many comments about that. The only thing I have heard from friends that use it, is that the pump swill is a waste of money as the mix can be different every time and place you buy it and to get consistent performance, you either have to pump a lot of it, to use for a while, or buy a drum of "performance E-85".
Before switching over to alky, you need to get someone at the track to tell you exactly what they have to go through with an alky car, as far as maint and other things.
Now some of you make think I am just an alky hater and really have no experience with it....oh contrare, I have used it plenty and have much experience with it. Don't buy the cost hype either. If you race a lot, and we did...by the time you factor fuel use, lube, maint and other items in, the alky cost MORE a season than VP C-16 for a season.
Monte
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: MIKES_DUSTER]
#817518
09/30/10 02:41 AM
09/30/10 02:41 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
master
|
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
Y'all keep running gas. Alky sucks and you should never ever use it. Ever!! Seriously! Ever Never!
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#817519
09/30/10 09:00 AM
09/30/10 09:00 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Even though it seems to be a common claim, I have NEVER seen an engine with a carb, make more power on the dyno, with alky over race gas, NEVER. As far as running cooler, I have never had a heating issue, so that is not a plus for me and a properly tuned gas carb, does not produce huge swings in ET, based on small weather changes, in my experience. The stuff stinks, it wrecks your parts and you have to use a ton more of it. I love blown motors on alky, but you could not run fast enough to give me an alky car with a carb.
I have had no personal experience with E-85, so I can't make many comments about that. The only thing I have heard from friends that use it, is that the pump swill is a waste of money as the mix can be different every time and place you buy it and to get consistent performance, you either have to pump a lot of it, to use for a while, or buy a drum of "performance E-85".
Before switching over to alky, you need to get someone at the track to tell you exactly what they have to go through with an alky car, as far as maint and other things.
Now some of you make think I am just an alky hater and really have no experience with it....oh contrare, I have used it plenty and have much experience with it. Don't buy the cost hype either. If you race a lot, and we did...by the time you factor fuel use, lube, maint and other items in, the alky cost MORE a season than VP C-16 for a season.
Monte
I agree that carbs are for gasoline and injectors are for alky.
Also alky requires more maintance to prevent corrosion.
|
|
|
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS
[Re: Challenger 1]
#817521
09/30/10 10:15 AM
09/30/10 10:15 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
|
Both of mine are alky carbs (one is a Chuck Nuytten 1050 Dominator and the other is an out of the box Holly 950 HP) and maybe that helps with the consumption and maintenance. I do add lube, Klotz, so that's add $10 to a drum so we are up to $115 a drum.
I will go through about 8 to 9 drums this year but that is for 2 cars making lots of passes, multiple classes, etc.
If your carbs are tuned right and you use a good lube like Klotz you shouldn't really have much extra maintenance. I used to change my oil several times a season but I don't do that any more, as long as I put them up hot they evaporate everything out of the oil so it still looks like honey and we are almost done with the season.
At the end of the season, if I'm not going to tear into the motors, I will put a gas carb on the motor and bring it up to temp and then shoot some WD-40 into the cylinders. I also like to start them at the beginning of the season on gas, but I just use pump gas.
I have a lot of respect for Monte but he mostly deals with shoot out type cars not bracket cars that may run multiple classes and not have but 5 mins of cool down time between runs. Ask any bracket racer if there is a cooling advantage for Alky and you'll get a 100% positive response. So I have to disagree with Monte on this one.
At the Monster Mopar race in St Louis on Saturday night they wouldn't allow us to do anything but put fuel in the cars and come straight back to the lanes for the last 3 rounds. Eric and I didn't have any trouble getting the cars cooled down. I race at 160, never had problems. Now in the finals with Eric my tranny was 210 but I run synthetic fluid in the tranny as well and it ran the best pass of the day, picked up .04 (I think Eric did to).
So for bracket racing, alcohol is hands down the best fuel for it's consistency and it's cooling abilities.
E-85 appears to be good and share some of those advantages but alky is still better.
I wouldn't run it on the street, I'd run E-85 if you don't want to run gas.
|
|
|
|
|
