Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/29/10 08:03 PM
Beside running cooler,what other advantages is there to run alcohol over gas?? Is it expensive??
ALCOHOL VS GAS
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/29/10 09:55 PM
I rate E85 best due to the success of board members here and my experience with gas and methanol. Gas is the highest priced, makes it tough to keep the car cool by comparison, and is less consistent with weather changes.
Methanol is the best of the three for power production. You also use 2.2 times as much of it. For last weekend I put three runs on the car and used about five gallons between the warm up and the runs. Cost is about 3.55 a gallon here.
E85 is the cheapest, due to government subsidy and only using 1.4 times as much as gas. At about $2 a gallon you can't beat the price.
Methanol is the best of the three for power production. You also use 2.2 times as much of it. For last weekend I put three runs on the car and used about five gallons between the warm up and the runs. Cost is about 3.55 a gallon here.
E85 is the cheapest, due to government subsidy and only using 1.4 times as much as gas. At about $2 a gallon you can't beat the price.
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/29/10 10:38 PM
Does E85 run cool like alcohol??
Posted By: QWK_ENUF
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/29/10 11:36 PM
Quote:
Does E85 run cool like alcohol??
at least 20 deg cooler
also maybe 5% more power
and $2.19 a gal at norwalk
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 12:00 AM
Another advantage is increased compression and timing is possible with alky.
Posted By: MegaDart
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 12:23 AM
Good luck finding E85 around here?? I'll stick with alky. I think the 2.2 ratio is gas carb to alky injection cause there's no way I use that much more with my alky carb. 1.00 gal per 1/8th mile run, 1.5gal per 1/4mile run.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 12:34 AM
I agree with everything posted, so far.
Alcohol is more consistant than gas, changes less with weather changes, runs cooler, and typically makes more power than gas.
There are a few operational things to do with alky, but if everything is done right, the maintenance isn't a big issue.
IMO, E85 is between methanol and gas. Both in performance, changes with weather, and running cooler. But from my experience, E85 is the least expensive when the day is done.
Some setups are different and will vary in how much fuel you use. And the cost of each fuel differs by location, so you have to do the math yourself. Although each fuel depends on the tuneup, methanol volume use will depend on the setup a large amount. Some racers are just putting too much alky down the motor in the pits, the return road, and during warm up; but no matter how you do it methanol needs more fuel volume down the track.
For example:
Quote:
This is my fuel cost comparison for a typical 5 passes down the 1/4 mile plus warm up time/fuel.
My 511 drinks some fuel, and a smaller motor should use less.
110 Gas: (5 passes x 0.7 gal/pass + 0.5 warmup) x $7.75/gallon = $31
Methanol:(5 passes x 1.5 gal/pass + 1.0 warmup) x $2.70/gallon = $23
Pump E85:(5 passes x 1.0 gal/pass + 0.5 warmup) x $2.55/gallon = $14
On a cool day, I have seen guys burning lots of methanol to warm up their motors, even between passes. So that 1.0 gallons is minimum for methanol, IMO. And I have seen reports around the country selling E85 for $1.99/gallon. But it is more expensive in Maryland.
http://e85prices.com/
Cheap hot rod fuel for high compression engines. Mine is 13.5 CR.
So if you make 150 passes per year, that should save at least $500/year compared to race gas.
If you switch to methanol, it might take you more to get the right approach and then you will be fine as long as you do your homework. E85 takes less brain power to switch from gas, but will not have the same benefits. But E85 is always the least expensive for a high compression race engine.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 12:49 AM
Quote:
Good luck finding E85 around here?? I'll stick with alky. I think the 2.2 ratio is gas carb to alky injection cause there's no way I use that much more with my alky carb. 1.00 gal per 1/8th mile run, 1.5gal per 1/4mile run.
Injectors run very fat at idle, as I'm sure you know. Stoichiometric for alky methanol is 5.5? gas is about 12.5. That works out to 2.27 times more methanol. Your results may vary
I believe i was off on how much I used on those three passes. I remember opening a second jug,,,,,,,,,,it was cool up here!
Posted By: DaKuda
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 01:13 AM
My Cuda went 7.09 on race gas. Did NOTHING but change to Alcohol and it ran 6.71 EVERY pass. 100 degree heat or on a cool night. Alky all the way.
Posted By: QWK_ENUF
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 01:26 AM
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
Posted By: Crizila
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 03:39 AM
Quote:Ya, what pump? Race gas by me ( that's accross the street from the track and at the track ), is $7.00 a gallon. E85 by me ( if you can find it ) is $2.70 a gallon. The fifference per gallon is $4.30. If you use 100 gallons of fuel a year racing, you would save $430. To buy that new carb with the green jet blocks and boosters your looking at over $1000. Ad another $400 to up grade your fuel system to handle the additional volume and be ethanol compatible, and you have an easy $1400 invested in just the peripherals ( no mods to the motor internals ). Now $430 in fuel savings goes in to $1400 a little over 3 times, so in a little over three years you might break even, if you don't break anything else. Other comments on this thread: Running more advance doesn't mean more power. Octane rating for E85 bounces around from 95 - 106, depending on where you buy it or who you talk to. Race gas by me is 110 ( did I mention I can buy it accross the street from the track ). If you consider that detonation is the limiting factor to making power, and that octane rating relates to detonation limits, there really is no gain here. Finally, You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol ). Unfortunately, all that heat energy doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% of that 10% goes out the tail pipe. another 30% goes to the cooling system. That leaves 25% to make power. 25% of 10% = 2.5% power gain with STRAIGHT Ethanol. E85 will be something less than that. A far cry from the 5% previously stated. I'm not selling anything. Just stating the facts - as I and others see them.
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 04:23 AM
Quote:Quote:Ya, what pump? Race gas by me ( that's accross the street from the track and at the track ), is $7.00 a gallon. E85 by me ( if you can find it ) is $2.70 a gallon. The fifference per gallon is $4.30. If you use 100 gallons of fuel a year racing, you would save $430. To buy that new carb with the green jet blocks and boosters your looking at over $1000. Ad another $400 to up grade your fuel system to handle the additional volume and be methanol compatible, and you have an easy $1400 invested in just the peripherals ( no mods to the motor internals ). Now $430 in fuel savings goes in to $1400 a little over 3 times, so in a little over three years you might break even, if you don't break anything else. Other comments on this thread: Running more advance doesn't mean more power. Octane rating for E85 bounces around from 95 - 106, depending on where you buy it or who you talk to. Race gas by me is 110 ( did I mention I can buy it accross the street from the track ). If you consider that detonation is the limiting factor to making power, and that octane rating relates to detonation limits, there really is no gain here. Finally, You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol ). Unfortunately, all that heat energy doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% of that 10% goes out the tail pipe. another 30% goes to the cooling system. That leaves 25% to make power. 25% of 10% = 2.5% power gain with STRAIGHT Ethanol. E85 will be something less than that. A far cry from the 5% previously stated. I'm not selling anything. Just stating the facts - as I and others see them.
did i mention E85 is available at the pump
I believe methanol has a octane rating of around 120, that's more than any race gas.
E85 has ethanol in it.
Posted By: WadeMetzinger
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 05:02 AM
Man you guys pay a lot for alcohol, I've been buying it around here for $2.00 a gallon (55 gallon drums for $105) for the past two years.
This past weekend my wife and I both raced our cudas running alcohol - warm up both, two time trials and 4 round each on 20 gallons. All 1/4 miles passes, so that's like 14 passes. After the last pass we keep the temp up and load them up good and warm (i like them to be 180) so it evaporates all the alcohol out of the oil. I run synthetic oil and don't change it all year, just change and inspect oil filter 2 times a year. We put 200 to 300 passes on the cars each year. So don't believe all the negative stuff you hear from guys that don't run alcohol.
This past weekend my wife and I both raced our cudas running alcohol - warm up both, two time trials and 4 round each on 20 gallons. All 1/4 miles passes, so that's like 14 passes. After the last pass we keep the temp up and load them up good and warm (i like them to be 180) so it evaporates all the alcohol out of the oil. I run synthetic oil and don't change it all year, just change and inspect oil filter 2 times a year. We put 200 to 300 passes on the cars each year. So don't believe all the negative stuff you hear from guys that don't run alcohol.
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 05:06 AM
This may be a stupid question but can you run alcohol on the street??
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 05:20 AM
Even though it seems to be a common claim, I have NEVER seen an engine with a carb, make more power on the dyno, with alky over race gas, NEVER. As far as running cooler, I have never had a heating issue, so that is not a plus for me and a properly tuned gas carb, does not produce huge swings in ET, based on small weather changes, in my experience. The stuff stinks, it wrecks your parts and you have to use a ton more of it. I love blown motors on alky, but you could not run fast enough to give me an alky car with a carb.
I have had no personal experience with E-85, so I can't make many comments about that. The only thing I have heard from friends that use it, is that the pump swill is a waste of money as the mix can be different every time and place you buy it and to get consistent performance, you either have to pump a lot of it, to use for a while, or buy a drum of "performance E-85".
Before switching over to alky, you need to get someone at the track to tell you exactly what they have to go through with an alky car, as far as maint and other things.
Now some of you make think I am just an alky hater and really have no experience with it....oh contrare, I have used it plenty and have much experience with it. Don't buy the cost hype either. If you race a lot, and we did...by the time you factor fuel use, lube, maint and other items in, the alky cost MORE a season than VP C-16 for a season.
Monte
I have had no personal experience with E-85, so I can't make many comments about that. The only thing I have heard from friends that use it, is that the pump swill is a waste of money as the mix can be different every time and place you buy it and to get consistent performance, you either have to pump a lot of it, to use for a while, or buy a drum of "performance E-85".
Before switching over to alky, you need to get someone at the track to tell you exactly what they have to go through with an alky car, as far as maint and other things.
Now some of you make think I am just an alky hater and really have no experience with it....oh contrare, I have used it plenty and have much experience with it. Don't buy the cost hype either. If you race a lot, and we did...by the time you factor fuel use, lube, maint and other items in, the alky cost MORE a season than VP C-16 for a season.
Monte
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 05:22 AM
Thanks Monte.....Im staying with gas.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 06:41 AM
Y'all keep running gas. Alky sucks and you should never ever use it. Ever!! Seriously! Ever Never!
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 01:00 PM
Quote:
Even though it seems to be a common claim, I have NEVER seen an engine with a carb, make more power on the dyno, with alky over race gas, NEVER. As far as running cooler, I have never had a heating issue, so that is not a plus for me and a properly tuned gas carb, does not produce huge swings in ET, based on small weather changes, in my experience. The stuff stinks, it wrecks your parts and you have to use a ton more of it. I love blown motors on alky, but you could not run fast enough to give me an alky car with a carb.
I have had no personal experience with E-85, so I can't make many comments about that. The only thing I have heard from friends that use it, is that the pump swill is a waste of money as the mix can be different every time and place you buy it and to get consistent performance, you either have to pump a lot of it, to use for a while, or buy a drum of "performance E-85".
Before switching over to alky, you need to get someone at the track to tell you exactly what they have to go through with an alky car, as far as maint and other things.
Now some of you make think I am just an alky hater and really have no experience with it....oh contrare, I have used it plenty and have much experience with it. Don't buy the cost hype either. If you race a lot, and we did...by the time you factor fuel use, lube, maint and other items in, the alky cost MORE a season than VP C-16 for a season.
Monte
I agree that carbs are for gasoline and injectors are for alky.
Also alky requires more maintance to prevent corrosion.
Posted By: Super Scamp
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 02:14 PM
Quote:
Beside running cooler,what other advantages is there to run alcohol over gas?? Is it expensive??
I run 75/25 Gas to Alcohol, I run cooler than most and don't have an issue starting in the cooler fall months of racing. Most of all mix per race and maintence is just like running pure alcohol. I'm very consistant in all weather.
Posted By: WadeMetzinger
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 02:15 PM
Both of mine are alky carbs (one is a Chuck Nuytten 1050 Dominator and the other is an out of the box Holly 950 HP) and maybe that helps with the consumption and maintenance. I do add lube, Klotz, so that's add $10 to a drum so we are up to $115 a drum.
I will go through about 8 to 9 drums this year but that is for 2 cars making lots of passes, multiple classes, etc.
If your carbs are tuned right and you use a good lube like Klotz you shouldn't really have much extra maintenance. I used to change my oil several times a season but I don't do that any more, as long as I put them up hot they evaporate everything out of the oil so it still looks like honey and we are almost done with the season.
At the end of the season, if I'm not going to tear into the motors, I will put a gas carb on the motor and bring it up to temp and then shoot some WD-40 into the cylinders. I also like to start them at the beginning of the season on gas, but I just use pump gas.
I have a lot of respect for Monte but he mostly deals with shoot out type cars not bracket cars that may run multiple classes and not have but 5 mins of cool down time between runs. Ask any bracket racer if there is a cooling advantage for Alky and you'll get a 100% positive response. So I have to disagree with Monte on this one.
At the Monster Mopar race in St Louis on Saturday night they wouldn't allow us to do anything but put fuel in the cars and come straight back to the lanes for the last 3 rounds. Eric and I didn't have any trouble getting the cars cooled down. I race at 160, never had problems. Now in the finals with Eric my tranny was 210 but I run synthetic fluid in the tranny as well and it ran the best pass of the day, picked up .04 (I think Eric did to).
So for bracket racing, alcohol is hands down the best fuel for it's consistency and it's cooling abilities.
E-85 appears to be good and share some of those advantages but alky is still better.
I wouldn't run it on the street, I'd run E-85 if you don't want to run gas.
I will go through about 8 to 9 drums this year but that is for 2 cars making lots of passes, multiple classes, etc.
If your carbs are tuned right and you use a good lube like Klotz you shouldn't really have much extra maintenance. I used to change my oil several times a season but I don't do that any more, as long as I put them up hot they evaporate everything out of the oil so it still looks like honey and we are almost done with the season.
At the end of the season, if I'm not going to tear into the motors, I will put a gas carb on the motor and bring it up to temp and then shoot some WD-40 into the cylinders. I also like to start them at the beginning of the season on gas, but I just use pump gas.
I have a lot of respect for Monte but he mostly deals with shoot out type cars not bracket cars that may run multiple classes and not have but 5 mins of cool down time between runs. Ask any bracket racer if there is a cooling advantage for Alky and you'll get a 100% positive response. So I have to disagree with Monte on this one.
At the Monster Mopar race in St Louis on Saturday night they wouldn't allow us to do anything but put fuel in the cars and come straight back to the lanes for the last 3 rounds. Eric and I didn't have any trouble getting the cars cooled down. I race at 160, never had problems. Now in the finals with Eric my tranny was 210 but I run synthetic fluid in the tranny as well and it ran the best pass of the day, picked up .04 (I think Eric did to).
So for bracket racing, alcohol is hands down the best fuel for it's consistency and it's cooling abilities.
E-85 appears to be good and share some of those advantages but alky is still better.
I wouldn't run it on the street, I'd run E-85 if you don't want to run gas.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 02:34 PM
Quote:Quote:Greg:
Wayne: Good luck finding E85 around here?? I'll stick with alky. I think the 2.2 ratio is gas carb to alky injection cause there's no way I use that much more with my alky carb. 1.00 gal per 1/8th mile run, 1.5gal per 1/4mile run.
Methanol is the best of the three for power production. You also use 2.2 times as much of it. For last weekend I put three runs on the car and used about five gallons between the warm up and the runs.
Injectors run very fat at idle, as I'm sure you know. Stoichiometric for alky methanol is 5.5? gas is about 12.5. That works out to 2.27 times more methanol. Your results may vary
I believe i was off on how much I used on those three passes. I remember opening a second jug,,,,,,,,,,it was cool up here!
Quote:I think we are all talking closer than some may think. Wayne said 1.5 gal/run, Greg said 5/3=1.66 with warm up on a cool day. If he used 1.0 gallon to warm it up at the beginning of the day, then 4/3=1.3gal/run. And I think Wayne's motor is smaller than Gregs too. Some alky carbs with a lean idle can save a little fuel, but it won't run as cool either. Wade had 2 cars x (2 TT + 4 rounds) = 12 passes at 20 gallons equals 1.6 gal/pass including warmup fuel.
Wade: This past weekend my wife and I both raced our cudas running alcohol - warm up both, two time trials and 4 round each on 20 gallons.
I ran methanol for 3 months and kept close track of warm-up and each run and it came out right at 1.5 gal/run plus warm up. This is a 1/4 mile track with a long shut down area and a long drive back to the pits. That all uses fuel.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 02:41 PM
What.... no mention of AV gas 
.... ya talked about meth.... let the myths begin... 
.... ya talked about meth.... let the myths begin...
Posted By: tubtar
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 02:46 PM
Quote:
Just stating the facts - as I and others see them.
When you're not looking for black helicopters and government conspiricies , no doubt.
Just playin , Dog.
I love the hate.
Keep it coming.
Posted By: QWK_ENUF
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 03:05 PM
heres my take on E85
CRIZILLA . i can see you are convinced its not for you and i can respect that
as for me
in the chicago/nw indiana area E85 is cheap and plentiful ,2.29 a gal.
i switched cause i am cheap , i can race more than ever since it is so much more affordable.
cooler? i used to come back to the pits and always show 200-220 deg
now 180-190 tops.
power wise ? i went from 10.20's to 10.0's
best so far at norwalk is 9.89
i spent 2 years running 10.20's on gas and switched to E85 and instantly dropped 2 tenths
i have switched 5 people over and all but 1 went faster , number 5 was my old man who went 10.98 on gas and 11.01 on E85 . i never tried tuning his car and i know its fat
E85 quality? i use the quickfuel tester and yet to see it more than E85-E86 at the 3 stations i go to
racing?
go to here http://www.proe85.com/
they run an 8.90 index and you should see the show the put on
tell them guys E85 don't rock
carb cost?
you can buy a new one for E85 but then can' you sell the old one.
i just convert old ones , my first one i got off of ebay and cost me $550 including the kit and paid for itself this season all ready
lastly,
i changed the oil before norwalk and that was the only one this season and it looked no different than gas.
durability? if it breaks it breaks cause they don't last forever but i will venture to say that the fuel type was of minor concern
QWKENUF
CRIZILLA . i can see you are convinced its not for you and i can respect that
as for me
in the chicago/nw indiana area E85 is cheap and plentiful ,2.29 a gal.
i switched cause i am cheap , i can race more than ever since it is so much more affordable.
cooler? i used to come back to the pits and always show 200-220 deg
now 180-190 tops.
power wise ? i went from 10.20's to 10.0's
best so far at norwalk is 9.89
i spent 2 years running 10.20's on gas and switched to E85 and instantly dropped 2 tenths
i have switched 5 people over and all but 1 went faster , number 5 was my old man who went 10.98 on gas and 11.01 on E85 . i never tried tuning his car and i know its fat
E85 quality? i use the quickfuel tester and yet to see it more than E85-E86 at the 3 stations i go to
racing?
go to here http://www.proe85.com/
they run an 8.90 index and you should see the show the put on
tell them guys E85 don't rock
carb cost?
you can buy a new one for E85 but then can' you sell the old one.
i just convert old ones , my first one i got off of ebay and cost me $550 including the kit and paid for itself this season all ready
lastly,
i changed the oil before norwalk and that was the only one this season and it looked no different than gas.
durability? if it breaks it breaks cause they don't last forever but i will venture to say that the fuel type was of minor concern
QWKENUF
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 03:07 PM
Mike, if you go with E85, you can buy it at Fleetwing, on the east side of Lakeland. It's located about a mile south of E Memorial Blvd(US92) on Combee Rd(CR659).
Posted By: MegaDart
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 03:23 PM
To each his own I say.
Alky is for carbs as well as injection.
I won't bother to debate this again as most of the pertinent points have been mentioned. One that has not is local. If I still lived in the cold North East I doubt I would run alky. Just too hard to make heat and starting is difficult on a cold day.
South of the Mason/Dixon line it is a great fuel! I will say prices vary widely for alky across the country. We have been paying an average of $150 per drum for 2-3 years.
Alky is for carbs as well as injection.
I won't bother to debate this again as most of the pertinent points have been mentioned. One that has not is local. If I still lived in the cold North East I doubt I would run alky. Just too hard to make heat and starting is difficult on a cold day.
South of the Mason/Dixon line it is a great fuel! I will say prices vary widely for alky across the country. We have been paying an average of $150 per drum for 2-3 years.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 03:41 PM
Quote:The cooler running is a big plus for Ethanol, no doubt - and can be a big contributor to improving ET. Carb conversions; if your existing gas carb has interchangeable boosters, yes. Other wise, most gas boosters can't support the addition fuel needed. Durability; You start running CR's in the 14:1 range, durability will be a factor. IMO, wash-down, it's affinity for water, fuel delution, are all durability factors - difficult to measure though. Testing E85 is easy ( and smart ). The question is what do you do with it when you find out it aint 85% ethanol or it has moocho water in it?? As you said, I am convinced it is not the way for me to go right now. Don't mean I won't change my mind tomorrow. I've eatin plenty of crow over the years
heres my take on E85
CRIZILLA . i can see you are convinced its not for you and i can respect that
as for me
in the chicago/nw indiana area E85 is cheap and plentiful ,2.29 a gal.
i switched cause i am cheap , i can race more than ever since it is so much more affordable.
cooler? i used to come back to the pits and always show 200-220 deg
now 180-190 tops.
power wise ? i went from 10.20's to 10.0's
best so far at norwalk is 9.89
i spent 2 years running 10.20's on gas and switched to E85 and instantly dropped 2 tenths
i have switched 5 people over and all but 1 went faster , number 5 was my old man who went 10.98 on gas and 11.01 on E85 . i never tried tuning his car and i know its fat
E85 quality? i use the quickfuel tester and yet to see it more than E85-E86 at the 3 stations i go to
racing?
go to here http://www.proe85.com/
they run an 8.90 index and you should see the show the put on
tell them guys E85 don't rock
carb cost?
you can buy a new one for E85 but then can' you sell the old one.
i just convert old ones , my first one i got off of ebay and cost me $550 including the kit and paid for itself this season all ready
lastly,
i changed the oil before norwalk and that was the only one this season and it looked no different than gas.
durability? if it breaks it breaks cause they don't last forever but i will venture to say that the fuel type was of minor concern
QWKENUF
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 04:14 PM
Quote:
Mike, if you go with E85, you can buy it at Fleetwing, on the east side of Lakeland. It's located about a mile south of E Memorial Blvd(US92) on Combee Rd(CR659).
How much is it a gallon and besides a different carb,any other changes have to be made to run E85?? THANKS!!!!
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 04:21 PM
Just called Fleetwing....$2.45 a gallon.
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 05:33 PM
You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol
The energy content of any alcohol is far less than gasoline.
The reason it works is because it will tolerate far richer mixture than gas, and the range of A:F is wider (easier tuning, lower penalty for small jetting errors).
The ratios used are never stoichiometric, which only means that all fuel molecules are consumed with no oxygen residue. This number is useless for any performance, and almost useless for normal driving since it's too lean for cold starting and light throttle acceleration, and too rich for best economy.
Max power ratios vs. energy content:
Gas: 114,000 BTU/gal @ 12.5:1 = 9,120
Methanol: 56,800 BTU/gal @ 5.0:1 = 11,360
Ethanol: 76,100 BTU/gal @ 8.0:1 = 9,513
You get more slightly more power, because you use much more alcohol.
The energy content of any alcohol is far less than gasoline.
The reason it works is because it will tolerate far richer mixture than gas, and the range of A:F is wider (easier tuning, lower penalty for small jetting errors).
The ratios used are never stoichiometric, which only means that all fuel molecules are consumed with no oxygen residue. This number is useless for any performance, and almost useless for normal driving since it's too lean for cold starting and light throttle acceleration, and too rich for best economy.
Max power ratios vs. energy content:
Gas: 114,000 BTU/gal @ 12.5:1 = 9,120
Methanol: 56,800 BTU/gal @ 5.0:1 = 11,360
Ethanol: 76,100 BTU/gal @ 8.0:1 = 9,513
You get more slightly more power, because you use much more alcohol.
Posted By: BobR
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 06:27 PM
Quote:
You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol
The energy content of any alcohol is far less than gasoline.
The reason it works is because it will tolerate far richer mixture than gas, and the range of A:F is wider (easier tuning, lower penalty for small jetting errors).
The ratios used are never stoichiometric, which only means that all fuel molecules are consumed with no oxygen residue. This number is useless for any performance, and almost useless for normal driving since it's too lean for cold starting and light throttle acceleration, and too rich for best economy.
Max power ratios vs. energy content:
Gas: 114,000 BTU/gal @ 12.5:1 = 9,120
Methanol: 56,800 BTU/gal @ 5.0:1 = 11,360
Ethanol: 76,100 BTU/gal @ 8.0:1 = 9,513
You get more slightly more power, because you use much more alcohol.
And if one uses Q16 or similar oxygenated fuel it becomes a power push.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 06:47 PM
Quote:Sorry, I assumed everyone understood that meant at the correct ratio for max power ( which obviously isn't stoic ). Also obviously, aint much that beats gasoline from a BTU standpoint - Why nitrous works so well as a power adder.
You definitely get more heat energy with ethanol ( about 10% for straight ethanol
The energy content of any alcohol is far less than gasoline.
The reason it works is because it will tolerate far richer mixture than gas, and the range of A:F is wider (easier tuning, lower penalty for small jetting errors).
The ratios used are never stoichiometric, which only means that all fuel molecules are consumed with no oxygen residue. This number is useless for any performance, and almost useless for normal driving since it's too lean for cold starting and light throttle acceleration, and too rich for best economy.
Max power ratios vs. energy content:
Gas: 114,000 BTU/gal @ 12.5:1 = 9,120
Methanol: 56,800 BTU/gal @ 5.0:1 = 11,360
Ethanol: 76,100 BTU/gal @ 8.0:1 = 9,513
You get more slightly more power, because you use much more alcohol.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 07:00 PM
I like winnning rounds so you guys should all stay on gas 
Posted By: Jacob Pitt
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 09/30/10 08:03 PM
I run all my stuff on gas and have thought several times about switching to e85 or meth, but have always stayed with gas. The biggest reason is I have it figured out and I can predict my cars very well so I'll probably be staying with gas. All my cooling systems are designed for gas so cooling even in the summer with two classes and late rounds keeps it employed and they stay pretty cool. There are alot of guys around here on alchohol and e85 is coming around as well.
Posted By: DRDart
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/01/10 01:47 AM
Quote:
To each his own I say.
Alky is for carbs as well as injection.
I won't bother to debate this again as most of the pertinent points have been mentioned. One that has not is local. If I still lived in the cold North East I doubt I would run alky. Just too hard to make heat and starting is difficult on a cold day.
South of the Mason/Dixon line it is a great fuel! I will say prices vary widely for alky across the country. We have been paying an average of $150 per drum for 2-3 years.
To each his own! LOL I switched over from race gas to alky with mech injection & will never switch back. I run less timing & the motor runs great with the same maint. ? but it does bring a tear to my eye LOL
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/01/10 03:54 AM
I assumed everyone understood that meant at the correct ratio for max power
I apologize - I know what you meant, I wasn't correcting you, just clarifying the numbers so that the rich mixture makes sense.
I apologize - I know what you meant, I wasn't correcting you, just clarifying the numbers so that the rich mixture makes sense.
Posted By: DaKuda
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/01/10 03:56 AM
Quote:
Man you guys pay a lot for alcohol, I've been buying it around here for $2.00 a gallon (55 gallon drums for $105) for the past two years.
This past weekend my wife and I both raced our cudas running alcohol - warm up both, two time trials and 4 round each on 20 gallons. All 1/4 miles passes, so that's like 14 passes. After the last pass we keep the temp up and load them up good and warm (i like them to be 180) so it evaporates all the alcohol out of the oil. I run synthetic oil and don't change it all year, just change and inspect oil filter 2 times a year. We put 200 to 300 passes on the cars each year. So don't believe all the negative stuff you hear from guys that don't run alcohol.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/01/10 04:35 AM
OK so seriously. I have said this before. I dont have a vacuum pump on mine and I change oil after 75 runs and the bearings look new when they come out. Does the oil come out black? Nope! Does it matter? Nope! I run top lube because it will clog up the squirters on the carb but other than that there is just no reason not to run it.
Posted By: Bigbeep
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/02/10 02:22 AM
I am still new to the methanol and injection but what I have learned so far is it does make some torque that I am not used to. I have a hard time staying off the chip doing the burnout. Just barely on the throttle and it is singing. Not sure if that is a trait of the fuel or the toilet or both. I use about 2.5 gal per pass with warm up. Currently giving 105 bucks for a 55 gallon drum with top lube. I have retarded my timing 2* from what I had it when on 112 gas and it is about 2.5 tenths faster in the heat (90*+). I also have found that it likes the water temp about 185-190 degrees when I stage the car. Water temp gains about 12-15 degrees on a 1/4 mile pass. No vacuum pump yet, but oil looks like new and I put it away hot and pull the evac breathers. I also spray wd-40 down it's throat at the end of the day. Still not 100% sure I will stay with it, but since it is now in the 9's, it is likely I will play with it a while longer. Still learning every time out. 
Posted By: goody340g
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/02/10 03:58 AM
We ran alcohol (rupert carb w/mech. pump)on our 498 Indy motor and the thing was deadly(to bad i wasn't) and ran cool , we never had a prob. with oil but once i iniatally warmed up the car i didn't allow it to get below 160*, rupert said this would be better for the oil vs getting hot,cold,hot,cold. it worked so good we tried it on our 511 B1, 
could not even hardly get the thing to run. after trying a few things, we put it back on gas and presto ran fine. i think we were at joliet and my dad was talking to some guys from BRE and they didn't have much success with alcohol on a b1 motor either. i would talk to people running similiar combos as you to see if alcohol is a good fit or not.
, we never had a prob. with oil but once i iniatally warmed up the car i didn't allow it to get below 160*, rupert said this would be better for the oil vs getting hot,cold,hot,cold. it worked so good we tried it on our 511 B1, could not even hardly get the thing to run. after trying a few things, we put it back on gas and presto ran fine. i think we were at joliet and my dad was talking to some guys from BRE and they didn't have much success with alcohol on a b1 motor either. i would talk to people running similiar combos as you to see if alcohol is a good fit or not.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: ALCOHOL VS GAS - 10/02/10 04:56 PM
Quote:Sounds like you are off to a good start. One other tip I got when I changed to Ron's injection was to pull out the fuel shutoff valve very slowly until the idle speed comes up (1500-2000 rpm) to lean the mixture and put heat in the motor. This is good for driving back to the pits to save fuel too. The shut off valve gets real sensitive near the right spot, so it takes some getting used to the technique, but it helps.
I am still new to the methanol and injection but what I have learned so far is it does make some torque that I am not used to.
I use about 2.5 gal per pass with warm up. Currently giving 105 bucks for a 55 gallon drum with top lube. I have retarded my timing 2* from what I had it when on 112 gas and it is about 2.5 tenths faster in the heat (90*+). I also have found that it likes the water temp about 185-190 degrees when I stage the car. Water temp gains about 12-15 degrees on a 1/4 mile pass. No vacuum pump yet, but oil looks like new and I put it away hot and pull the evac breathers. I also spray wd-40 down it's throat at the end of the day. Still not 100% sure I will stay with it, but since it is now in the 9's, it is likely I will play with it a while longer. Still learning every time out.