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Re: Carb [Re: Quicktree] #784856
09/03/10 08:22 AM
09/03/10 08:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
I Live Here
moper  Offline
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Columbia, CT
I'm not a big time racer but I've never had to use more than a 37 squirtor, and most are fine with 30ccs and 31. It's only supposed to pump during trasition in throttle opening. Not after... After is where the PV and booster come in. If I had to guess, your PCV is fine the way it was. The difference was the lean you had from basically a big vacuum leak. You have an annular booster carb. It's very sensitive to pressure cahnges. I'd go leaner on the shot (like a 28 with the 30cc) and see if that helps. Remember the amount of fuel will never change. It's always going to be 30 or 50ccs. But the time it takes to discharge will. Big squirtors mean a lot of fuel for a shorter time. Smaller shooters mean more time spent enriching the mixture. I think you're way over-rich when the rpms clear 2500 due to the annular boosters and larger pump cam with the larger shooter. It cleans out when the rpms drop with the shift and the acc pump is out of volume.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Carb [Re: moper] #784857
09/03/10 09:50 AM
09/03/10 09:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
master
TonyS451  Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
thanks for the replys guys. This has been a frustrating situation for sure. Moper - I did try the 30cc, pink cam and 28 squirter and had the same problem. I tried 28 to 47 squirters with the 30cc, and only tried 33's with the 50cc. Whats also very frustrating is that the problem never duplicates itself identically. Some pulls are cleaner than others, with the same hardware.

If the annular carb is more sensitive to pressure, would it help any to route the pcv to a port lower on the intake manifold vs directly to the carb?


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784858
09/03/10 10:12 AM
09/03/10 10:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Q
Quicktree Offline
I Win
Quicktree  Offline
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Posts: 32,394
Quote:

thanks for the replys guys. This has been a frustrating situation for sure. Moper - I did try the 30cc, pink cam and 28 squirter and had the same problem. I tried 28 to 47 squirters with the 30cc, and only tried 33's with the 50cc. Whats also very frustrating is that the problem never duplicates itself identically. Some pulls are cleaner than others, with the same hardware.

If the annular carb is more sensitive to pressure, would it help any to route the pcv to a port lower on the intake manifold vs directly to the carb?


why don't you just remove the pcv and add a vented cap? you really don't want to suck that into the mixture

Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784859
09/03/10 12:33 PM
09/03/10 12:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
BradH  Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
What is the venturi dimension for a QFT "950" annular? Even running my Claw w/ 1.56" venturi and annular boosters, it seemed like that style of booster simply pulls too much fuel too early in the RPM range to run cleanly on the street.

If I ever try it w/ annular boosters again, I'm going to stick in the 1.59" venturi sleeves and see if that helps. Otherwise, I'm going to stay w/ "tried and true" downleg booster combinations.

Re: Carb [Re: BradH] #784860
09/03/10 08:51 PM
09/03/10 08:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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TonyS451  Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
not sure about the venturi size. I'll check into it though.


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784861
09/04/10 07:08 PM
09/04/10 07:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 204
SW Missouri
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willp Offline
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SW Missouri
If your 50cc stuff does not correct the problem I still recommend having the calibration of the meter circuit checked. You may have an air velocity problem with the heads that the annular booster cannot over come until the rpm picks up significantly increasing the port velocity. I would be more inclined to be using a down leg booster style carb anyway with more standard size pumps and squirters.

Re: Carb [Re: willp] #784862
09/04/10 08:17 PM
09/04/10 08:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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TonyS451  Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
My engine guy thinks I should try jetting down a few sizes. His theory is that if the engine ran its best with a big vacuum leak, it must have been extremely rich (since normally a big vacuum leak would create a lean condition, especially on hard acceleration). He also thinks my problem is occuring past the point of the pump/squirter consideration. And, he also thinks the pcv is not part of the problem.

Soo, with that I'm going to pull the carb, put the 30cc and pink cam back on, 33 squirters (stock settings), and pull out 3 jet sizes. If that doesnt help any, I'm going to give another carb a try.

Can I route the pcv to a vacuum port on the manifold or is it best to go right to the back of the carb? Or does it not matter either way?


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784863
09/05/10 02:16 AM
09/05/10 02:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 204
SW Missouri
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willp Offline
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SW Missouri
Sometimes a big vacuum leak will cause the power valve to stand open all the time. And this would make it very rich. I think a power valve leak rich condition can be the same as 10 jet sizes big. But it also depends on how much of a vacuum leak there is. I would stick a gauge on it and see what it is doing at idle. I don't think it will matter one way or the other on where you attach the pcv hose. The orifice is usually with the pcv valve. I still believe the metering calibration is off on that carb. If you try another carb try one with down leg boosters. Good luck with this, I know how frustrating it can be.

Re: Carb [Re: willp] #784864
09/05/10 02:59 AM
09/05/10 02:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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joedust451 Offline
super gas
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super gas
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Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
Quote:

I still believe the metering calibration is off on that carb.




I agree.


75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA 97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot 71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105 78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU
Re: Carb [Re: joedust451] #784865
09/05/10 10:07 AM
09/05/10 10:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Q
Quicktree Offline
I Win
Quicktree  Offline
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Q

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Posts: 32,394
he added fuel pressure and it picked up. im still leaning towards it running out of fuel right before the shift point.

Re: Carb [Re: Quicktree] #784866
09/05/10 12:44 PM
09/05/10 12:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
5
540DUSTER Offline
mopar
540DUSTER  Offline
mopar
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
Did he add the fuel pressure before or after the regulator?

Re: Carb [Re: 540DUSTER] #784867
09/05/10 01:33 PM
09/05/10 01:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Q
Quicktree Offline
I Win
Quicktree  Offline
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Quote:

Did he add the fuel pressure before or after the regulator?


have to guess it was after

Re: Carb [Re: Quicktree] #784868
09/05/10 06:18 PM
09/05/10 06:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
5
540DUSTER Offline
mopar
540DUSTER  Offline
mopar
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
if he increased regulator pressure,it reduces flow.Why does Barry Grant say that you need a pump that can pump,lets say one gallon in 20 seconds,its not because the engine is going to use that much fuel.Its because a pump that can flow fuel at that rate has a higher output pressure before bypass.I'am guessing that Tony's pump is going away.

Re: Carb [Re: 540DUSTER] #784869
09/05/10 07:48 PM
09/05/10 07:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
I am running a clay smith mechanical pump and I really doubt the pump is going away. Cant say with 100% certainty especially since I still havn't figured this out yet, but the pressure is always rock steady wherever I lock it in at. I'm going to try jetting down first and see if there is any change. I will try different pressure settings too if need be. I will say this though, at my last test session when it ran its hardest with the pcv detached, I had the pressure up at 8.5. I kept the same pressure with the follow up pass (with the pcv attached) and it returned to the same breaking up symptoms.

Thats why I dont think its the pump or regulator...but im definitely not ruling it out entirely.

So tonight my test run will keep the 50cc pump, 33 squirter, jetting 3-4sizes down (forget what jets are in there now..I think 79 and 87). Going to keep the pressure at 8.5, and run the pcv hose to a port behind the intake.

If it shows signs of improvement or cleans it up all together, I may try going back to the 30cc and pink cam and also try dropping the fuel pressure to a more street friendly rate - 7-7.5.

Thanks everyone for your input. Its been very helpful.


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784870
09/05/10 08:26 PM
09/05/10 08:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
5
540DUSTER Offline
mopar
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USA
Tony,can you monitor fuel pressure on a run? Is your fuel pick-up at the rear of the tank?

Re: Carb [Re: 540DUSTER] #784871
09/05/10 09:17 PM
09/05/10 09:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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TonyS451  Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
Quote:

Tony,can you monitor fuel pressure on a run? Is your fuel pick-up at the rear of the tank?




No, I dont have a a visible pressure gauge, only under the hood. The fuel pick up is a factory style 1/2" in a factory tank. And the fuel line from the tank to the pump is factory bent 1/2" steel. From the pump is -8 hose to regulator, and -6 hose from regulator to the carb.


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784872
09/06/10 12:26 AM
09/06/10 12:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540 Offline
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Flint, Michigan
Quote:

I will say this though, at my last test session when it ran its hardest with the pcv detached, I had the pressure up at 8.5. I kept the same pressure with the follow up pass (with the pcv attached) and it returned to the same breaking up symptoms.





This is the part i dont get, Tony. If i understand it, it runs perfectly w/out the PCV hooked up? Plug that port and see how it runs, that will eliminate a bad PCV valve as the culprit. right? Or confirm it.

Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784873
09/06/10 12:38 AM
09/06/10 12:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
master
TonyS451  Offline OP
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Chicago, IL
I made a few "runs" around the 'hood tonight. First I tried jetting down 4 sizes front and back with fuel pressure at 8.5, and sputtered like heck. Came back jetted back to 79 and 87 bumped the pressure up to 9 and ran much better, but still with some sputtering. When I set the pressure above 8.5 it appears to be too much for the regulator cause the needle starts bouncing. As soon as I back it off to 8.5 or below it stays steady.

I even popped the pcv hose off just to see if I could duplicate my awesome pull from the other night, but no such luck this time. I must have just been lucky last time.

I'm going to pick up a fuel pressure gauge that I can see from inside the car and really see whats happening. At this point, I think thats the only way to really narrow down the problem.

BTW, The car still idles like a champ and street cruising is nice and crisp, so for now I see no reason to put the 30cc pump and pink cam back in. I'll let you know what happens after I verify the fuel pressure on a "pull".


2 kids and a dog
Re: Carb [Re: TonyS451] #784874
09/10/10 05:58 PM
09/10/10 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 204
SW Missouri
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willp Offline
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SW Missouri
You ever get this fiquired out?

Re: Carb [Re: willp] #784875
09/10/10 06:11 PM
09/10/10 06:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
master
TonyS451  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
I just plumbed a fuel pressure gauge in the other night (one that I can see while Im driving). Got too late to take it out for a "run" and havnt had a chance since. Gonna take it for a spin tomorrow...will let you know what i find. Thanks!


2 kids and a dog
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