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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: Streetwize]
#619897
02/23/10 10:42 AM
02/23/10 10:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Well with full respect....being in industrial engineering for 30 years and being flown 1/2 around the world to seek my opinions for FMEA (Failure Modes and Effect analysis) studies I think I have at least a "clue"...any safety system designed by man gets improved upon and upgraded as soon as something that was "NOT supposed to Happen" happens, Darrel Russell is a very good example of something that everyone knew could happen (a tire breaking apart and tail-whipping) but was not addressed until a low probability occurence quite tragicly took his life. 
Fatalities happen in racing and in industry, it all comes down to "acceptable risk" and hoping the safety measures enacted are adequate to mitigate that risk.....upgrading those measures are often expensive (except DR's accident seems not so expensive and in a tragic irony now almost seems "common sense"....quite unfortunately from time to time the bar must be raised and there are always those who resist because of the expense of the redesign.
I'm sure may of you may be familiar that in Industry we use many "torque to yield" break -away bolts and nuts that are essentially double nuts where torque is applied to the top nut and it shears off leaving only the properly torqued bottom nut in place. That's only mentioned as an example of how often engineering must take the human error factor out of the equation but even that is only as good as its certification method.
There is no question in my mind that a wheel/wheel securing system could be designed with adequate strength for TF and F/C that would keep the wheel secure to a axle hub....it may not keep the tire on the wheel (another matter fro discussion) but it could certainly keep the wheel on the axle. 
I'll bet you Antron's wheel looks just like mine did. The inner wheel stayed bolted to the car and the outer separating. I guess they have to make the wheels heavier?
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: Streetwize]
#619898
02/23/10 10:53 AM
02/23/10 10:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
Sixpak
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Quote:
Well with full respect....being in industrial engineering for 30 years and being flown 1/2 around the world to seek my opinions for FMEA (Failure Modes and Effect analysis) studies I think I have at least a "clue"...any safety system designed by man gets improved upon and upgraded as soon as something that was "NOT supposed to Happen" happens, Darrel Russell is a very good example of something that everyone knew could happen (a tire breaking apart and tail-whipping) but was not addressed until a low probability occurence quite tragicly took his life.
Fatalities happen in racing and in industry, it all comes down to "acceptable risk" and hoping the safety measures enacted are adequate to mitigate that risk.....upgrading those measures are often expensive (except DR's accident seems not so expensive and in a tragic irony now almost seems "common sense"....quite unfortunately from time to time the bar must be raised and there are always those who resist because of the expense of the redesign.
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Sadly, this is a factor in a LOT of industry today and yesterday. Look at Ford's decision not to spend $50 per car on a redesign of the Pinto gas tank...the airlines have an expression for this, not trying to be glib, but they call it 'tombstone technology'.....
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: torredcuda]
#619900
02/23/10 11:55 AM
02/23/10 11:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 85
Arizona
Jeffaary
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 85
Arizona
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Quote:
Wheel tethers,fences-Nascar has 3500# cars hit the fence and bounce off.
NASCAR & Indy cars have also had their tires bounce OVER those catch fences and kill spectators. Catch fences are not a 100% solution. Did you see the footage of this crash? The tire was pretty low at first, just barely clearing the chest-high concrete wall. Then it hits something, either the unfortunate lady or the yellow truck, and at that point it starts bouncing sky-high. A wheel/tire that heavy and with that much inertia/momentum/energy is tough to contain. I'd rather focus my efforts on not letting the tire break away in the first place.
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: jcc]
#619903
02/23/10 01:04 PM
02/23/10 01:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Maybe this pic makes more sense
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: Jeffaary]
#619904
02/23/10 01:08 PM
02/23/10 01:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,030
NH
torredcuda
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,030
NH
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Quote:
Quote:
Wheel tethers,fences-Nascar has 3500# cars hit the fence and bounce off.
NASCAR & Indy cars have also had their tires bounce OVER those catch fences and kill spectators. Catch fences are not a 100% solution. Did you see the footage of this crash? The tire was pretty low at first, just barely clearing the chest-high concrete wall. Then it hits something, either the unfortunate lady or the yellow truck, and at that point it starts bouncing sky-high. A wheel/tire that heavy and with that much inertia/momentum/energy is tough to contain. I'd rather focus my efforts on not letting the tire break away in the first place.
There are no 100% solutions as yes,accidents will always happen but I think a lot more can be done to improve safety.Look at all Nascar has done in recent years-safer barriers,complete new car,better seats,hans device etc.
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: torredcuda]
#619905
02/23/10 02:44 PM
02/23/10 02:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wheel tethers,fences-Nascar has 3500# cars hit the fence and bounce off.
NASCAR & Indy cars have also had their tires bounce OVER those catch fences and kill spectators. Catch fences are not a 100% solution. Did you see the footage of this crash? The tire was pretty low at first, just barely clearing the chest-high concrete wall. Then it hits something, either the unfortunate lady or the yellow truck, and at that point it starts bouncing sky-high. A wheel/tire that heavy and with that much inertia/momentum/energy is tough to contain. I'd rather focus my efforts on not letting the tire break away in the first place.
There are no 100% solutions as yes,accidents will always happen but I think a lot more can be done to improve safety.Look at all Nascar has done in recent years-safer barriers,complete new car,better seats,hans device etc.
As far as the nitro cars go these rockets are breaching sanity and that's their primary draw. You start taming them then their popularity will dwindle. That said, there is no reason why a better/stronger wheel/hub assembly cannot be devised.
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: maximum entropy]
#619910
02/23/10 05:59 PM
02/23/10 05:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Quote:
I don`t mean to sound dumb but whats a wheel tether? I`ve never seen/heard of it. 
f1 uses 'em. in the event of wheel/ suspension failure the wheel (usually) stays with the car.
Don't know how that would have made any difference in this situation. The F1 tethers are attached to the suspension assembly and not the wheel.
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: BobR]
#619911
02/23/10 06:09 PM
02/23/10 06:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
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really, i'm amazed this doesn't happen almost every time they rattle the tires. the slomo video is painful to watch, literally shaking the car (and driver) to pieces.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: maximum entropy]
#619912
02/23/10 06:12 PM
02/23/10 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
really, i'm amazed this doesn't happen almost every time they rattle the tires. the slomo video is painful to watch, literally shaking the car (and driver) to pieces.
thats when you should lift and try it again, which is what he did and what probably caused the problem
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Re: accident at Phoenix?
[Re: jcc]
#619916
02/23/10 07:35 PM
02/23/10 07:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
really, i'm amazed this doesn't happen almost every time they rattle the tires. the slomo video is painful to watch, literally shaking the car (and driver) to pieces.
I asked this question a couple of years back and got no response, then if "tire shake" is the main culprit, what causes it, what would prevent it, and it is a recent problem ( don't remember it in the 60's??)? Myabe we can't see the forest from the trees.
Tire shake...one of the hardest things to tune around with a car with big power. There's many different reasons it happens, but it's always from the car not getting up on the tire at the right time.
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