|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: TS3303]
#553100
12/18/09 02:46 AM
12/18/09 02:46 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
|
THIS POST IS FOR DRAG RACING, TRACK ONLY CARS......One more time for those who came late to the party. A perfectly straight driveline, eats the least power and is the reason that tube chassis cars are set up and built as they are, to be as close to that as possible. As drag racers, that is what we want, the absolute least loss of power. Your transmission output is where it is in most cars and you can't move it. For a given ride height, your front joint has an angle that can be changed very little, so you deal with it. Your rear angle however can be dealt with, by raising or lowering the pinion. If our goal is the least power loss, that means we want the driveline to be as straight as possible "UNDER POWER". So we guess, at about where we think the pinion will be, "UNDER POWER", taking into account suspension deflection, and set the shaft to pinion angle, to achieve as straight a driveline angle as we can, while "UNDER POWER". Now this is strictly a guess, as suspension is dynamic during the entire run, meaning it is NOT STATIC and is constantly changing. Equal joint angles, parallel center line planes and all that other crap, go straight out the window when you drop the hammer, because as the suspension moves, it is never in that spot again. Now if you go to the trouble to do all that stuff, she may be super smooth while you are towing or idling back up the return road and well yeah, I guess that may be the most important thing to some, but just not me. If it rides around the pits and don't throw the shaft out, it is good enough. Where it is going down the track is what counts and me personally, I want that to be as close to a straight line as I can get it. Monte Notice, this post was made without the expressed written consent of Quicktree or Dave Morgan and does not express their views. These opinions, are only those expressed by the poster, and as such, said opinions are not to be taken as gospel and are only intended for informational purposes   
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: TS3303]
#553101
12/18/09 03:32 AM
12/18/09 03:32 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
OP
I Win
|
OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
|
Quote:
I actually asked Monte if he had ever mapped the pinion angle during a full run. His reply was basically why if your not having problems.
maybe Tony can have Dave have racepak hook him up with the proper sensors to install on different suspension/power cars to see what it really does.
I think he plans on doing that at some point.
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Quicktree]
#553103
12/18/09 08:45 AM
12/18/09 08:45 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 729
Lebanon,IN
mr2performance
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 729
Lebanon,IN
|
"I think he plans on doing that at some point." That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though 
MR2PERFORMANCE RACE CARS
765 483 9371
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Blown71X]
#553105
12/18/09 10:28 AM
12/18/09 10:28 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
I have a hunch the reason many people believe in both methods is simple. The driveshaft to pinion measurement is seldom wrong due to the fact that most cars are built right to start with, with the shaft and engine centerline very close to right. Secondly, it takes a fare amount of improper angle to produce real problems with our type of equipment. The torque converter acts as a cushion, the tires act as a cushion. I got my driveshaft education in the 60s , on a piece of equipment that would tear itself apart if you didn't get it close, or right. A single U joint if run at an angle, and run at a steady speed, will produce a faster/slower motion twice per revolution. It is zero difference to very little at low angles, but grows rapidly as the angle gets further from correct. That is why they phase u joints, and why there are such things as constant velocity Ujoints  (shame on me, I just couldn't stay out of it!  
Last edited by gregsdart; 12/18/09 10:35 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: gregsdart]
#553106
12/18/09 12:02 PM
12/18/09 12:02 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
OP
I Win
|
OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
|
Quote:
I have a hunch the reason many people believe in both methods is simple. The driveshaft to pinion measurement is seldom wrong due to the fact that most cars are built right to start with, with the shaft and engine centerline very close to right. Secondly, it takes a fare amount of improper angle to produce real problems with our type of equipment. The torque converter acts as a cushion, the tires act as a cushion.
I got my driveshaft education in the 60s , on a piece of equipment that would tear itself apart if you didn't get it close, or right.
A single U joint if run at an angle, and run at a steady speed, will produce a faster/slower motion twice per revolution. It is zero difference to very little at low angles, but grows rapidly as the angle gets further from correct. That is why they phase u joints, and why there are such things as constant velocity Ujoints
(shame on me, I just couldn't stay out of it!
why? you are absolutely correct in my opinion. but you can see my opinion doesn't mean much
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: mr2performance]
#553107
12/18/09 12:03 PM
12/18/09 12:03 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
OP
I Win
|
OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
|
Quote:
"I think he plans on doing that at some point."
That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though
why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case  
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Blown71X]
#553108
12/18/09 12:06 PM
12/18/09 12:06 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
OP
I Win
|
OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
|
Quote:
you wouldn't have anything to do if it stopped
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Quicktree]
#553109
12/18/09 12:37 PM
12/18/09 12:37 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 729
Lebanon,IN
mr2performance
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 729
Lebanon,IN
|
"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"
My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike
MR2PERFORMANCE RACE CARS
765 483 9371
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Quicktree]
#553110
12/18/09 12:44 PM
12/18/09 12:44 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
|
Quote:
Quote:
"I think he plans on doing that at some point."
That would be a huge waste of time, kind of like this thread. I have enjoyed the pictures though
why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case
No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless. If the rear simply went up and down and the pinion maintained the same plane, you might have a case, but it does not work like that. And by the way, it would be easy to do. You check the pinion angle with the car static, then raise or lower the car in whatever increments, you want and check it again. You log all these measurements, relative to shock position. Now, when said car is running down the track and you read the shock sensors, you could know the pinion angle at every point on the track. If you had ever looked at any shock graphs, you would realize this number would change during the entire run. I have numerous cars with shock sensors, that I could do this on. Why have I not? Because as Mike said, it is useless information, would tell you absolutely nothing of value.
Monte
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: mr2performance]
#553111
12/18/09 12:47 PM
12/18/09 12:47 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"
My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike
My thoughts extactly Mike,same as my thoughts about enginneers,they can draw a perfect Azzhole on paper,but can't make it poop.I can make it po a perfect pile everytime. 
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: B G Racing]
#553112
12/18/09 12:55 PM
12/18/09 12:55 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
|
Quote:
Quote:
"why? if the data to back it was these then you would have no case"
My "case"and or "data" comes from experience along with the timeslips to back it up... not some idea or drawing of what a "perfect" situation
should look like.
Mike
My thoughts extactly Mike,same as my thoughts about enginneers,they can draw a perfect Azzhole on paper,but can't make it poop.I can make it po a perfect pile everytime.
i gotta remember that line next time i deal with the engineer on my current project... thanks Bob
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: DJVCuda]
#553113
12/18/09 01:09 PM
12/18/09 01:09 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
|
Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
|
well, that was fun. looks like a new script in the works
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#553114
12/18/09 01:12 PM
12/18/09 01:12 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
TS3303
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
|
Quote:
No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless.
That was my whole point. To show that, so people would see having it exactly perfect all the time is impossible.
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: TS3303]
#553115
12/18/09 03:28 PM
12/18/09 03:28 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
No, No, NO, it is because the rear end swings in an arc and the pinion angle constantly changes, so that makes the data useless.
That was my whole point. To show that, so people would see having it exactly perfect all the time is impossible.
Nice picture
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: blown572dart]
#553117
12/18/09 04:17 PM
12/18/09 04:17 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
Wow ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You all have made ROLMFAO 
Jimmy,you have to be sharp and look for all those small subtle nuances that Jim sneaks in.Always look out side the box.
|
|
|
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success
[Re: TS3303]
#553119
12/18/09 04:39 PM
12/18/09 04:39 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
what? who me? never!
there is no answer or resolution to this thread so we might as well have a little fun and keep it light hearted.
 As Judge Judy says"he doesn't know if he afoot or on horseback. See you later,going to shop X-mas party,
|
|
|
|
|
