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And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA #3225869
04/08/24 06:21 PM
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Dragula Offline OP
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'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3225871
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Originally Posted by Dragula
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How?

Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3225877
04/08/24 07:07 PM
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1600 hp is nuts on a street car

Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: gtx6970] #3225882
04/08/24 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gtx6970
1600 hp is nuts on a street car

Yes, on a 10" tire no less. I would rather have had the 1200 at 5 psi.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3225893
04/08/24 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragula


yeah...considering the fairly expensive pile of aluminum sitting next to my desk, that video was not what I wanted to see...

moparts.jpg
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Hot 340] #3225898
04/08/24 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hot 340
Originally Posted by Dragula
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How?


Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow.

When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often.

Last edited by Dragula; 04/08/24 08:25 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Craig J] #3225901
04/08/24 08:32 PM
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Why does this dropped sleave problem seem to come up from time to time ??
AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: turbobitt] #3225922
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We use liquid nitrogen on our sleeves and heat our blocks om an oven when installing sleeves and make sure they are seated. I always pressure check my blocks and heads before machining, even used OEM blocks and heads to verify that they are not junk before wasting time and money on machining them.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3225926
04/08/24 10:38 PM
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The 572 Indy engine that Best Machine built for me a couple of years back dropped the sleeves. I never talked to Chuck about it but I assume that the block came from Indy with the sleeves installed. If so, then Indy might have the same issue with sleeves dropping. If you're buying an aluminum block it makes sense to ask the vendor about the sleeves.
On the flip side, we've run a ton of aluminum Chevy engines over the years and never seen a dropped sleeve. So maybe Dart and Brodix and others have it figured it out?

Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Hot 340] #3225927
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Originally Posted by Hot 340
Originally Posted by Dragula
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How?
I called them hemiroids motors for many reasons rant
I had the same thing happen on the sleeves on the first KB aluminum street hemi blown motor I built but they were .002 to .004 to high from KB back in the early 2000s causing water leaks into the motor whiney down
That was a much smaller motor with a bad BDS blower and a early FAST EFI system built by the owner at that time of BDS, Craig Raisbeck down Nothing but problems on that project down whiney shruggy
That motor ended up with a10:71 Littlefield Blower and a Motech EFI system with a 3 hole bug catcher hat (3000CFM I think)) on the blower back in 2005 or so on CA pump swill


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3225998
04/09/24 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by Hot 340
Originally Posted by Dragula
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How?


Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow.

When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often.


I have been PM/Chief Engineer on several of the machines that automatically install sleeves in aluminum blocks. Have done the nitrogen sleeve (Saturn/GM) and heating the block (Mercury Marine) method. In both, the sleeves are held down and the tooling is hammered to seat the sleeve. The amount of movement is measured to verify that on the last hit, the sleeve did not move. Yes, you can hear the difference in sound. The reason to seat is not just to prevent the water leakage problem in the Steve Morris video. If the deck is cut with a gap under the head of the sleeve, in operation, the bore in the aluminum expands expands more than the sleeve outside diameter. The sleeve will "float" and will move up and down with the piston. Eventually can damage the block and head.

John


1971 Satellite Sebring Plus - 14.46 @ 95.43
1977 Road Runner - N/B 11.02@ 119 Drag Radials
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Craig J] #3226007
04/09/24 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig J
Originally Posted by Dragula


yeah...considering the fairly expensive pile of aluminum sitting next to my desk, that video was not what I wanted to see...



Perfect timing for this video then.

Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ...


Mainstream Media is the new Pravda
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: gearhead01] #3226011
04/09/24 11:49 AM
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I don't get it. Yes, when you put a sleeve in a 440 you hammer it down to the bottom and "seat it". It has no register on the top to keep it from going up and down if it wasn't seated. But everything I've worked with that had "real" sleeves has a register on the top. The OD dependent on the bore spacing, and the depth of around .250". The block is counterbored .250" and you put the sleeve in that also has a .250" register. Now this isn't rocket science. You stick a sleeve with a .250" register in a hole that has a .250" counterbore and the top of the sleeve will be flush with the deck. You can verify this by running your finger across it. I bought a new Indy block once. The sleeves were about .002" below the deck. I was afraid that wouldn't seal so I decked it 003". Again, this is basic math. Either the counterbore was too deep or the sleeve was cut too thin. So much for Indy's quality control. So I don't have any idea how the sleeves in the video could "settle".


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: JohnRR] #3226034
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Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by Craig J
Perfect timing for this video then.
Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ...

The difference in weight does not make me want to run aluminum blocks unless they are blown or supercharge, the ring seal on the starting line versus how much the sleeves change in a aluminum block dring the run makes me stay away from them.

A friend of mine saw the crankcase pressure go from 12 inches of vacuum on the starting line on the 1/4 mile tracks go up to1.5 lbs. of crankcase pressure on a mid to low 7 second car with his aluminum race motor compared to his iron block race motor starting the run with 17.5 inches of vacuum on the starting line and cross the 1/4 mile finish line with 12.0 inches of vacuum.
I'm pretty sure they got a lot less runs (25 to 30 more runs on the iron blocks) out of the rings also on the aluminum race motor compared to the iron block race motors


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Cab_Burge] #3226097
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All my engines are aluminum and I have seen NONE of those issues. But we also make sure everything is correct before we start, and yes checking sleeves is on the list. Never ASSume...FWIW my aluminum engines see 17+ inches of vacuum, never been an issue.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: gearhead01] #3226105
04/09/24 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gearhead01
Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by Hot 340
Originally Posted by Dragula
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How?


Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow.

When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often.


I have been PM/Chief Engineer on several of the machines that automatically install sleeves in aluminum blocks. Have done the nitrogen sleeve (Saturn/GM) and heating the block (Mercury Marine) method. In both, the sleeves are held down and the tooling is hammered to seat the sleeve. The amount of movement is measured to verify that on the last hit, the sleeve did not move. Yes, you can hear the difference in sound. The reason to seat is not just to prevent the water leakage problem in the Steve Morris video. If the deck is cut with a gap under the head of the sleeve, in operation, the bore in the aluminum expands expands more than the sleeve outside diameter. The sleeve will "float" and will move up and down with the piston. Eventually can damage the block and head.

John


So I was also the engineer on the L850 line in NY here...The knocker machine did indeed measure the drop and it knows they are seated. But that is not the end of it. The sleeves are left proud of the head deck by .002-.003 if I remember, and then the blocks go thru the heat cycle'er....

Now one thing only a block engineer will know is, bad sleeve boring can also push the sleeves out. If you have a dull boring insert and bore the sleeve or sleeves with it, you will put a lot of residual force into the sleeve. This can be measured if you know what the sleeve height was before you bored it. If its higher after boring, the sleeve is junk, and needs to be pulled.

After sleeve boring and measuring, the block is decked and all should be flat....BUT only if the sleeves were seated & bored correctly.....I am not so sure the after market has the process down.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Dragula] #3226241
04/10/24 11:39 AM
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On the Bill Mitchell block the sleeve only has .001" interference fit or it will crack between the bores. Once the sleeves are set, they can push out just with temperature changes. They are to be reset before decking. I'm hoping Best Machine reset mine before decking. Fingers crossed.

Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Al_Alguire] #3226260
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
All my engines are aluminum and I have seen NONE of those issues. But we also make sure everything is correct before we start, and yes checking sleeves is on the list. Never ASSume...FWIW my aluminum engines see 17+ inches of vacuum, never been an issue.

iagree My KB block has been great. Comparable combos w/ iron blocks aren't any faster from what I've seen. I don't see a downside to aluminum other than initial cost. Blow it up once and it'll be way more expensive to run cast iron. twocents
I built it in 2006, freshened it twice. Then went .010" over in 2019. Ran a new best this past weekend.


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'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
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'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
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Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Cab_Burge] #3226325
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by Craig J
Perfect timing for this video then.
Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ...

The difference in weight does not make me want to run aluminum blocks unless they are blown or supercharge, the ring seal on the starting line versus how much the sleeves change in a aluminum block dring the run makes me stay away from them.

A friend of mine saw the crankcase pressure go from 12 inches of vacuum on the starting line on the 1/4 mile tracks go up to1.5 lbs. of crankcase pressure on a mid to low 7 second car with his aluminum race motor compared to his iron block race motor starting the run with 17.5 inches of vacuum on the starting line and cross the 1/4 mile finish line with 12.0 inches of vacuum.
I'm pretty sure they got a lot less runs (25 to 30 more runs on the iron blocks) out of the rings also on the aluminum race motor compared to the iron block race motors

Cab, i have ro wonder if the serious vacuum decrease was related to something with the rings, or too much oil in suspension at high rpm? My dart with a BMP aluminum block lost vacuum, but dropped from 6.8 to 4? 1/4 mile, and 7500 rpm in the traps.


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Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA [Re: Cab_Burge] #3226375
04/10/24 09:56 PM
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My block is at my other home, so I can’t look at it right now, but can’t the sleeve be checked for seating by trying a .001” or .002” gauge under the sleeve?

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