Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: gtx6970]
#3225882
04/08/24 07:24 PM
04/08/24 07:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,730 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,730
Stuttgart, Arkansas
|
1600 hp is nuts on a street car Yes, on a 10" tire no less. I would rather have had the 1200 at 5 psi.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Hot 340]
#3225898
04/08/24 08:22 PM
04/08/24 08:22 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,478 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
OP
I Live Here
|
OP
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,478
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How? Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow. When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often.
Last edited by Dragula; 04/08/24 08:25 PM.
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Craig J]
#3225901
04/08/24 08:32 PM
04/08/24 08:32 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 775 Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 775
Southington Ct.
|
Why does this dropped sleave problem seem to come up from time to time ?? AG.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: turbobitt]
#3225922
04/08/24 09:59 PM
04/08/24 09:59 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,638 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,638
Motor City
|
We use liquid nitrogen on our sleeves and heat our blocks om an oven when installing sleeves and make sure they are seated. I always pressure check my blocks and heads before machining, even used OEM blocks and heads to verify that they are not junk before wasting time and money on machining them.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Hot 340]
#3225927
04/08/24 10:43 PM
04/08/24 10:43 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,788 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,788
Bend,OR USA
|
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How? I called them hemiroids motors for many reasons I had the same thing happen on the sleeves on the first KB aluminum street hemi blown motor I built but they were .002 to .004 to high from KB back in the early 2000s causing water leaks into the motor That was a much smaller motor with a bad BDS blower and a early FAST EFI system built by the owner at that time of BDS, Craig Raisbeck Nothing but problems on that project That motor ended up with a10:71 Littlefield Blower and a Motech EFI system with a 3 hole bug catcher hat (3000CFM I think)) on the blower back in 2005 or so on CA pump swill
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Dragula]
#3225998
04/09/24 10:55 AM
04/09/24 10:55 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 215 Illinois
gearhead01
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 215
Illinois
|
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How? Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow. When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often. I have been PM/Chief Engineer on several of the machines that automatically install sleeves in aluminum blocks. Have done the nitrogen sleeve (Saturn/GM) and heating the block (Mercury Marine) method. In both, the sleeves are held down and the tooling is hammered to seat the sleeve. The amount of movement is measured to verify that on the last hit, the sleeve did not move. Yes, you can hear the difference in sound. The reason to seat is not just to prevent the water leakage problem in the Steve Morris video. If the deck is cut with a gap under the head of the sleeve, in operation, the bore in the aluminum expands expands more than the sleeve outside diameter. The sleeve will "float" and will move up and down with the piston. Eventually can damage the block and head. John
1971 Satellite Sebring Plus - 14.46 @ 95.43 1977 Road Runner - N/B 11.02@ 119 Drag Radials
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Craig J]
#3226007
04/09/24 11:44 AM
04/09/24 11:44 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,290 A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,290
A gulag near you.
|
yeah...considering the fairly expensive pile of aluminum sitting next to my desk, that video was not what I wanted to see... Perfect timing for this video then. Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ...
Mainstream Media is the new Pravda
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: gearhead01]
#3226011
04/09/24 11:49 AM
04/09/24 11:49 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,730 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,730
Stuttgart, Arkansas
|
I don't get it. Yes, when you put a sleeve in a 440 you hammer it down to the bottom and "seat it". It has no register on the top to keep it from going up and down if it wasn't seated. But everything I've worked with that had "real" sleeves has a register on the top. The OD dependent on the bore spacing, and the depth of around .250". The block is counterbored .250" and you put the sleeve in that also has a .250" register. Now this isn't rocket science. You stick a sleeve with a .250" register in a hole that has a .250" counterbore and the top of the sleeve will be flush with the deck. You can verify this by running your finger across it. I bought a new Indy block once. The sleeves were about .002" below the deck. I was afraid that wouldn't seal so I decked it 003". Again, this is basic math. Either the counterbore was too deep or the sleeve was cut too thin. So much for Indy's quality control. So I don't have any idea how the sleeves in the video could "settle".
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: JohnRR]
#3226034
04/09/24 01:06 PM
04/09/24 01:06 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,788 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,788
Bend,OR USA
|
Perfect timing for this video then. Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ... The difference in weight does not make me want to run aluminum blocks unless they are blown or supercharge, the ring seal on the starting line versus how much the sleeves change in a aluminum block dring the run makes me stay away from them. A friend of mine saw the crankcase pressure go from 12 inches of vacuum on the starting line on the 1/4 mile tracks go up to1.5 lbs. of crankcase pressure on a mid to low 7 second car with his aluminum race motor compared to his iron block race motor starting the run with 17.5 inches of vacuum on the starting line and cross the 1/4 mile finish line with 12.0 inches of vacuum. I'm pretty sure they got a lot less runs (25 to 30 more runs on the iron blocks) out of the rings also on the aluminum race motor compared to the iron block race motors
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3226097
04/09/24 05:55 PM
04/09/24 05:55 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,552 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,552
Las Vegas
|
All my engines are aluminum and I have seen NONE of those issues. But we also make sure everything is correct before we start, and yes checking sleeves is on the list. Never ASSume...FWIW my aluminum engines see 17+ inches of vacuum, never been an issue.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: gearhead01]
#3226105
04/09/24 06:35 PM
04/09/24 06:35 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,478 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
OP
I Live Here
|
OP
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,478
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
You really find that problem is associated with gen 2s only? How? Well I would blame World more than anything, cause he has done that before, along with drilling head deck holes into the water jackets, as well as the trans holes into the water jackets, but figured I would take the high road. But this is a potential problem on any aluminum G2 Mopar block where the sleeve installer does not have a good process...I really like the newer Non-mopar dry deck blocks that have evolved to eliminate this issue. Mopar should follow. When I worked at GM, we put the sleeves in with liquid nitrogen and a automated sleeve hammer that hammered them to the bottom...Seems the after market has not figured this out yet. It changes sound when it hits the bottom. Then we heat cycled them. Seems like a PITA process, but you don't see factory engines having that issue too often. I have been PM/Chief Engineer on several of the machines that automatically install sleeves in aluminum blocks. Have done the nitrogen sleeve (Saturn/GM) and heating the block (Mercury Marine) method. In both, the sleeves are held down and the tooling is hammered to seat the sleeve. The amount of movement is measured to verify that on the last hit, the sleeve did not move. Yes, you can hear the difference in sound. The reason to seat is not just to prevent the water leakage problem in the Steve Morris video. If the deck is cut with a gap under the head of the sleeve, in operation, the bore in the aluminum expands expands more than the sleeve outside diameter. The sleeve will "float" and will move up and down with the piston. Eventually can damage the block and head. John So I was also the engineer on the L850 line in NY here...The knocker machine did indeed measure the drop and it knows they are seated. But that is not the end of it. The sleeves are left proud of the head deck by .002-.003 if I remember, and then the blocks go thru the heat cycle'er.... Now one thing only a block engineer will know is, bad sleeve boring can also push the sleeves out. If you have a dull boring insert and bore the sleeve or sleeves with it, you will put a lot of residual force into the sleeve. This can be measured if you know what the sleeve height was before you bored it. If its higher after boring, the sleeve is junk, and needs to be pulled. After sleeve boring and measuring, the block is decked and all should be flat....BUT only if the sleeves were seated & bored correctly.....I am not so sure the after market has the process down.
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3226260
04/10/24 12:57 PM
04/10/24 12:57 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,502 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,502
Marion, South Carolina [><]
|
All my engines are aluminum and I have seen NONE of those issues. But we also make sure everything is correct before we start, and yes checking sleeves is on the list. Never ASSume...FWIW my aluminum engines see 17+ inches of vacuum, never been an issue. My KB block has been great. Comparable combos w/ iron blocks aren't any faster from what I've seen. I don't see a downside to aluminum other than initial cost. Blow it up once and it'll be way more expensive to run cast iron. I built it in 2006, freshened it twice. Then went .010" over in 2019. Ran a new best this past weekend.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
|
|
|
Re: And this is why Alum G2 Hemi's are such a PITA
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3226325
04/10/24 04:50 PM
04/10/24 04:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,110 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,110
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Perfect timing for this video then. Even though they are extremely heavy I'm glad my hemi is iron ... The difference in weight does not make me want to run aluminum blocks unless they are blown or supercharge, the ring seal on the starting line versus how much the sleeves change in a aluminum block dring the run makes me stay away from them. A friend of mine saw the crankcase pressure go from 12 inches of vacuum on the starting line on the 1/4 mile tracks go up to1.5 lbs. of crankcase pressure on a mid to low 7 second car with his aluminum race motor compared to his iron block race motor starting the run with 17.5 inches of vacuum on the starting line and cross the 1/4 mile finish line with 12.0 inches of vacuum. I'm pretty sure they got a lot less runs (25 to 30 more runs on the iron blocks) out of the rings also on the aluminum race motor compared to the iron block race motors Cab, i have ro wonder if the serious vacuum decrease was related to something with the rings, or too much oil in suspension at high rpm? My dart with a BMP aluminum block lost vacuum, but dropped from 6.8 to 4? 1/4 mile, and 7500 rpm in the traps.
8.582, 160.18 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
|
|