Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220112
03/13/24 10:37 AM
03/13/24 10:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118
Loudoun County, VA
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What's typical of your .500 Pro Tree RT? I don't have much experience foot-braking from a Pro Tree, which is why I ask.
You can likely jimmy the secondary linkage so that they don't open or only open slightly. Probably need a long link that you can bend to work... or maybe something even cruder like remove the link and zip-tie the secondaries shut?
FWIW, I've been considering trying local 7.50 1/8 and 11.50 1/4 index classes this year in my 1320, although the car is pretty far off the mark, especially in the 1/4. Might have to look into easy weight removal tricks to squeeze what I can out of it.
If I can get the old car dialed in on the track, I expect it would be a better fit in the 6.50 / 10.0 classes than the 1320 will be in the 7.50 / 11.50.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: throttle response
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3220118
03/13/24 10:49 AM
03/13/24 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,772 Keymar, MD
DusterKid
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,772
Keymar, MD
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What's typical of your .500 Pro Tree RT? I don't have much experience foot-braking from a Pro Tree, which is why I ask.
You can likely jimmy the secondary linkage so that they don't open or only open slightly. Probably need a long link that you can bend to work... or maybe something even cruder like remove the link and zip-tie the secondaries shut?
FWIW, I've been considering trying local 7.50 1/8 and 11.50 1/4 index classes this year in my 1320, although the car is pretty far off the mark, especially in the 1/4. Might have to look into easy weight removal tricks to squeeze what I can out of it.
If I can get the old car dialed in on the track, I expect it would be a better fit in the 6.50 / 10.0 classes than the 1320 will be in the 7.50 / 11.50. I'm typically .070-.090 on the tree, sometimes I squeeze a .050 out. I think twice I've been better than a .050 but that was pretty much guessing or pure luck. When I run with only the 2bbl I run with the secondary wired shut that way they don't happen to open their selves inconsistently.
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Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220123
03/13/24 11:10 AM
03/13/24 11:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,673 On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,673
On the parachute mount
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ROLL IN DEEP
My son runs 11.50 index on a .500 pro tree, he can cut .010 or better all day on a footbrake, but he deep stages
Last edited by n20mstr; 03/13/24 11:11 AM.
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220141
03/13/24 12:01 PM
03/13/24 12:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976 new jersey usa
11secdart
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976
new jersey usa
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I have been slowing my car down from 10.80s to 11.50 for about 12 years now, I run 11.50 Index on a .500 pro tree. I use a Moroso throttle stop ( bolts to the drivers side rear carb stud ) and I just adjust it in or out to go slower or faster in my application my secondaries are barely opening . I have tried the E.T. Genie as well as the Willys adjustable throttle stop ( plate moves in and out ) but I found with them they killed to much MPH so I went back to the bolt set up . This has worked very well for me .. winning two track championships with the set up as well as going many rounds and a few number one qualifiers ( dead on 11.50 in qualifying ) . With my current motors ( only a few months old ) power band I have found a glitch in my set up.. in good air I adjust and get to around 11.45-46 and another slight turn on the bolt puts me at 11.60s so I recently added another Willys setup even though it kills mph I am hoping with my more hp and tq. motor and only needing a slight adjustment for 11.50s it won't kill to much mph. I tried shallow staging on a .500 pro tree and was struggling much like you I got some advice from two very well known and successful bracket racers : Deep stage and stay with it until you get better... I have and it really helped my pro tree program ! and I foot brake and can hold my own against cars with two steps and trans brakes .. my lights and 60 fts are just as good as most of my competitors . Having a car that 60 fts well is also important ..my car is between ..1.58 - 1.62 deep ( 1.48 -1.52 shallow ) on the throttle stop. I also recently added a DD starting line controller its a lever that attaches to the side of the shifter and the bottom of the carb linkage .. its adjustable and spring loaded .. you adjust the lever travel and set it at your desired leave rpm .. makes it easier to stage I set mine at 2,000 rpm .. you don't have to look at the tach making staging easier .. push up on the lever to stage once you leave the line just let go of the lever
Last edited by 11secdart; 03/13/24 12:31 PM.
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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Re: throttle response
[Re: n20mstr]
#3220142
03/13/24 12:02 PM
03/13/24 12:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118 Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,118
Loudoun County, VA
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"... typically .070-.090 on the tree, sometimes I squeeze a .050 out"
"... he can cut .010 or better all day on a footbrake, but he deep stage"
I don't deep stage cuz I'm not familiar w/ how far I can bump it in before going too far, but I look at those RTs above and think... I am so screwed
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320 100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft) weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008] pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220147
03/13/24 12:12 PM
03/13/24 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,712 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,712
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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I'm typically .070-.090 on the tree, sometimes I squeeze a .050 out. I think twice I've been better than a .050 but that was pretty much guessing or pure luck. When I run with only the 2bbl I run with the secondary wired shut that way they don't happen to open their selves inconsistently.
It sounds like when you say you are running a 2 bbl that you are actually running the front half of your 850 4 bbl, if that is the case then perhaps a much smaller 4 bbl like maybe a 600 or 650 would give you what you are looking for. Probably have better throttle response and power than half of an 850.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: throttle response
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#3220183
03/13/24 01:23 PM
03/13/24 01:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,098 Massillon, Ohio
cudatom
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,098
Massillon, Ohio
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I'm typically .070-.090 on the tree, sometimes I squeeze a .050 out. I think twice I've been better than a .050 but that was pretty much guessing or pure luck. When I run with only the 2bbl I run with the secondary wired shut that way they don't happen to open their selves inconsistently.
It sounds like when you say you are running a 2 bbl that you are actually running the front half of your 850 4 bbl, if that is the case then perhaps a much smaller 4 bbl like maybe a 600 or 650 would give you what you are looking for. Probably have better throttle response and power than half of an 850. This is what a friend does. With a dominator he'll run high 5.9's to 6.0. He will some times run the 6.5 index. He switches to a 650. He's very consistent.
Ok
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Re: throttle response
[Re: 11secdart]
#3220197
03/13/24 01:56 PM
03/13/24 01:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,772 Keymar, MD
DusterKid
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,772
Keymar, MD
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I have been slowing my car down from 10.80s to 11.50 for about 12 years now, I run 11.50 Index on a .500 pro tree. I use a Moroso throttle stop ( bolts to the drivers side rear carb stud ) and I just adjust it in or out to go slower or faster in my application my secondaries are barely opening . I have tried the E.T. Genie as well as the Willys adjustable throttle stop ( plate moves in and out ) but I found with them they killed to much MPH so I went back to the bolt set up . This has worked very well for me .. winning two track championships with the set up as well as going many rounds and a few number one qualifiers ( dead on 11.50 in qualifying ) . With my current motors ( only a few months old ) power band I have found a glitch in my set up.. in good air I adjust and get to around 11.45-46 and another slight turn on the bolt puts me at 11.60s so I recently added another Willys setup even though it kills mph I am hoping with my more hp and tq. motor and only needing a slight adjustment for 11.50s it won't kill to much mph. I tried shallow staging on a .500 pro tree and was struggling much like you I got some advice from two very well known and successful bracket racers : Deep stage and stay with it until you get better... I have and it really helped my pro tree program ! and I foot brake and can hold my own against cars with two steps and trans brakes .. my lights and 60 fts are just as good as most of my competitors . Having a car that 60 fts well is also important ..my car is between ..1.58 - 1.62 deep ( 1.48 -1.52 shallow ) on the throttle stop. I also recently added a DD starting line controller its a lever that attaches to the side of the shifter and the bottom of the carb linkage .. its adjustable and spring loaded .. you adjust the lever travel and set it at your desired leave rpm .. makes it easier to stage I set mine at 2,000 rpm .. you don't have to look at the tach making staging easier .. push up on the lever to stage once you leave the line just let go of the lever A handful of years ago I tried to do something similar to the Moroso throttle stop before I spent the money for the ET Genie. I still have a factory throttle cable, so I have a pc of 1/2 flat metal that bolts to the end of the cable and then goes on the linkage of the carb. I made a few that were longer than the one I normally run so I wouldn't be getting full throttle. I forget what the ET cutoff I was trying to achieve at the time, but I know my car was not happy when I took just the slightest bit of throttle away from it. Just the slightest bit of throttle removed, and it was like the convertor wasn't locking up and was a turd. I'm actually surprised and pleased the ET Genie works as well as it does.
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Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220214
03/13/24 03:45 PM
03/13/24 03:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976 new jersey usa
11secdart
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976
new jersey usa
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Do you lose mph with the E.T. Genie ? I know I did . 2 to 3 . I actually had to modify my Moroso stop to make the bolt for the linkage stop longer. Still works well until I reach a certain point on the adjustment . One thing we found while running my current engine on the dyno was that using my bolt system really didn't hurt my air / fuel readings , we have heard about some stop type systems causing havoc with the readings causing weird things to happen in the intake manifold. Another brand x engine was dynoed with an E.T. Genie and it too showed no ill effects .
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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Re: throttle response
[Re: 11secdart]
#3220233
03/13/24 05:23 PM
03/13/24 05:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
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Ive run N/SS and Open Comp off the foot brake. Using bolt in the throttle linkage, weight, and reduced timing. The bolt was great in my old car. Fine thread 3/8”. Never had a bod. And it shouldn’t. You’re not moving the throttle far enough to affect pump shot. Within its range we could move the car .01-.02. If you get the bolt turned far enough ET will fall like a rock. Don’t go there. Method #2 add weight and then fine tune with the bolt. Problem with this is if it’s a multi day event and you get a large weather change it’s hard to hit the number first out in the morning. Method #3 weight. Put the weight in the right location and it’s really accurate. Problem is if you have to kill over .20 where do you put all that weight? We are talking 200 lbs plus of legally installed ballast. And yes we get spot checked.. #4 reduce timing, fine tune with weight. Problem same as #2. Large weather change can move the car more than you think. You need to know your car vs weather history. Not just looking at the weather station either. Been doing this since the 90s. If we are off more than .002x it’s a big mistake. This is with no starting line rev chip, air shift, or any other help. Pro tree going deep works well. Been attacking the Pro tree the last year just like the full tree, shallow. Still a little slow but getting there. By all rights a .500 pro and full .500 should be the same. I can do it in practice with in .010. Just need more hits in the car on the Pro tree. I have maybe 20-25 pro hits vs 25 years on the full tree. Doug
Last edited by dvw; 03/13/24 05:30 PM.
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Re: throttle response
[Re: dvw]
#3220237
03/13/24 06:08 PM
03/13/24 06:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976 new jersey usa
11secdart
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976
new jersey usa
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Good read dvw ! ..... I thought about adding weight but after two hernia surgeries its probably not a good idea for me . I also ran full tree for over 25 years and it also took me awhile to get use to the pro tree but I really like it now. I run my race car pretty much pro tree only now but find myself struggling a little when running my low 15 second pickup on a full tree I guess I am just use to the pro tree now. I actually ran the truck on a pro tree a few times even went a few rounds but found out trying to hit a pro tree in a truck that 60 fts in the low 2.00s deep and a car that 60 fts 1.60 deep are completely different . I have the car dialed in and setup for 11.50 pretty well but I am always looking for better. I lost too many races last year I should have Won including two Finals due to poor stripe driving after being better on the tree .. thats my main focus this year
Last edited by 11secdart; 03/13/24 06:22 PM.
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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Re: throttle response
[Re: DusterKid]
#3220549
03/15/24 08:50 AM
03/15/24 08:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976 new jersey usa
11secdart
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,976
new jersey usa
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My car has never ran good mph for as long as I have raced it for over 40 years , its always ran good 60 foot however . Thats with 6 different small block configurations and several front end alignments. I run 115 which is in the middle of what most of my fellow 11.50 competitors run , some run a little more . I am going testing this Sunday to try out my combo of Moroso stop and Willys adjustable. First 11.50 race is at Cecil County April 6th .
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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