Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: daveh1971]
#321681
05/18/09 04:52 PM
05/18/09 04:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
Hey guys,
I installed new convertible pump lines on my 71 Challenger and the top is going up and down but slowly. I can see that the lines aren't completly full. Air pockets move around when it goes up or down. How do I bleed the system? Should the lines be completly full with fluid? If I crack a nut to put more fluid in it begins to leak out, more like spew out. I've only been filling it with the top down should it be up? Any suggestions you have are appreciated.
Thanks Dave
what we did with the packards, was to simply run the top up and down a bunch. since the fluid flow goes in both directions for the rams, it will 'self bleed' as air in the lines gets pumped to the resevoir and floats to the top...much like your PS pump/system and how it will "self bleed"
run it a bunch of times, and let it sit incase its so low that the fluid gets aerated, once the bubbles are out, top off the resevoir and run it through some more.
shouldn't matter if the cylinders are extended or compressed, because of how the pump drives the cylinders both ways, so no matter what position the rams are in, there's one side that is "full" and the other side that is "empty"
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#321682
05/18/09 04:57 PM
05/18/09 04:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
Quote:
Hey guys,
I installed new convertible pump lines on my 71 Challenger and the top is going up and down but slowly. I can see that the lines aren't completly full. Air pockets move around when it goes up or down. How do I bleed the system? Should the lines be completly full with fluid? If I crack a nut to put more fluid in it begins to leak out, more like spew out. I've only been filling it with the top down should it be up? Any suggestions you have are appreciated.
Thanks Dave
what we did with the packards, was to simply run the top up and down a bunch. since the fluid flow goes in both directions for the rams, it will 'self bleed' as air in the lines gets pumped to the resevoir and floats to the top...much like your PS pump/system and how it will "self bleed"
run it a bunch of times, and let it sit incase its so low that the fluid gets aerated, once the bubbles are out, top off the resevoir and run it through some more.
shouldn't matter if the cylinders are extended or compressed, because of how the pump drives the cylinders both ways, so no matter what position the rams are in, there's one side that is "full" and the other side that is "empty"
100% Correct.... Look At The Big Brain on Bra eer Tom!! 
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: Andrewh]
#321685
05/18/09 09:00 PM
05/18/09 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
GO_Fish
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
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You are right to ask. I tried to add more fluid because my top went up with "jerky" motion. Shortly after adding the extra fluid, I ruptured one of the hoses behind the rear seat. That filled the seat foam with ATF and half melted the vinyl seat covers (the vinyl became very soft and drooped). Years later everything dried out and pulled mostly back into shape. But that is not an episode I want to repeat.
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: Andrewh]
#321686
05/18/09 09:04 PM
05/18/09 09:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
While the rams don't care, the pump does.
I can't find my paperwork, but the guy that rebuilt my pump specified filling only in one instance. Filling at the wrong time blows out some pump seal, or over fills the resevior and blows out that seal.
Regardless, the only way to air it out is to run it up and down a bunch. Give it a rest inbetween otherwise it starts to smoke.
A fan on it might not hurt. It isn't meant to do a lot of rapid cycles.
Then pull the plug and top it off. Really wish I could remember. I seem to recall filling it with the top down, but again don't remember for sure.
I don't see how it would matter either way. the way the pump/resevoirs are, is that as you run it one way, the pump is pulling fluid from the resevoir to extend the ram, however, at the same time, as the ram extends, the fluid on the top side of the piston is being pushed out, and flows backwards into the resevoir. (where the air bubbles will now float to the top) then as you lower the rams, the pump now runs in reverse, and sends the fluid to the top side of the ram, again, as it uses fluid from the resevoir to lower the ram, the fluid on the bottom side is now being pushed back into the resevoir, so there are no seals or anything to be "uncovered" while it's running.
I had the privlege of tearing one of these down once when it wasn't working properly. from what I saw looking inside of it, was that it really won't matter which position things are in when toppping off the resevoir...what I did see, was that they were idiots for spec-ing brake fluid as the hydraulic fluid to use, aside from how it eats paint when it leaks, it also holds moisture. the reason for the inoperative pump was because the brake fluid picked up moisture and rusted the entire system out. the resevoir, pump, and cylinders were filled with scale rust.
replaced everything with new stuff and filled with ATF. PS fluid would work as well.
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: GO_Fish]
#321687
05/18/09 09:07 PM
05/18/09 09:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
You are right to ask. I tried to add more fluid because my top went up with "jerky" motion. Shortly after adding the extra fluid, I ruptured one of the hoses behind the rear seat. That filled the seat foam with ATF and half melted the vinyl seat covers (the vinyl became very soft and drooped). Years later everything dried out and pulled mostly back into shape. But that is not an episode I want to repeat.
what caused your line to rupture? unless you were running the pump after the top was all the way up, or all the way down, there's no reason why the pressure would build enough to rupture anything, unless your lines were bad enough they needed to be replaced anyway.
if the line ruptured and the line was ok, then something else was going on, binding up, etc. to cause a pressure spike.
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#321688
05/18/09 09:10 PM
05/18/09 09:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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of course, Isay all this, assuming the pump is the same as the Packard stuff...the packard pump that went bad, was replaced with one that was ordered as a T-bird 'vert pump, side by side, they were identical, except for the color of the paint on the outside, all the plugs and locations and mounting brackets were identical, and both motors ran off 12V, negative ground systems...and they BOTH look just like the pumps I've seen advertised in mopar mags as "mopar" motors.
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: 68HemiB]
#321690
05/18/09 09:24 PM
05/18/09 09:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
Quote:
You are right to ask. I tried to add more fluid because my top went up with "jerky" motion. Shortly after adding the extra fluid, I ruptured one of the hoses behind the rear seat. That filled the seat foam with ATF and half melted the vinyl seat covers (the vinyl became very soft and drooped). Years later everything dried out and pulled mostly back into shape. But that is not an episode I want to repeat.
I side with Tom (and not just to kiss up to the new Mod) on this. A blown line is more likely from aging lines and/or resistance to the pressure ("jerky" motion = binding somewhere?), and NOT from "filling when the top is at the wrong position".
I don't need any kissing up anyway, I'm still "one of the guys"! heck, the majority of you guys on here still know more about mopars than I do. I just happen to know a bit about tops--since I have slightly more than a basic understanding of hydraulics thanks to my Acft Maintenance experience, and my hands on experience working at the packard restoration shop. (we discovered the Ford T-bird pump was the same because we had a Ford T-bird in at the same time for a paint job, and the brand new pump that was un-installed on the T-bird and not needed yet, was faster than waiting for one to ship and arrive 3 days later, when we were installing the top hardware and hydraulics that day  )
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: Andrewh]
#321692
05/18/09 10:16 PM
05/18/09 10:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
All I can say is what he said. In one position, the top rams hold more fluid. If you fill in that position, it will blow out a seal in the resevior. He said it was common, and he could tell, and would void my warranty.
Thinking about it, it must hold more fluid in the up position since the ram arms take up space in the down position.
So if you fill while the top is up, then you have over filled the system.
this could be a possibility. when the ram is extended, the entire volume of the cylinder is filled with fluid. when the ram is retracted, the cylinder is filled with the ram "rod" and fluid.
When I was hooking up the convertible top stuff on the Packard, I was unaware of this, and possibly just got lucky that there was enough air in the system, that each time I topped it off and ran it through again, it was removing enough air that it never "over filled" the resevoir with fluid.
that being said--you could play it safe and top off only when the rams are retracted--but I still think that if one of the lines blew out, it's because it was old/brittle and something else was binding up causing a pressure spike
when new, did these tops use brake fluid or ATF/PS fluid? I know the packard stuff called for brake fluid, but that was also in the 1950s...
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: Andrewh]
#321694
05/19/09 10:52 AM
05/19/09 10:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
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I bought a new pump from Hydro Electric. They recommend trans fluid. They say if brake fluid is used, the warranty is reduced.
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: daveh1971]
#321696
05/19/09 09:07 PM
05/19/09 09:07 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
GO_Fish
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
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My line that blew was original, so maybe it was just its time. But just before I did add fluid with the top up. I filled it from inside the trunk, and that would be darn near impossible with the top stored down in the trunk. Are you supposed to remove the seat back to access the pump from the passenger compartment?
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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Re: Convertible Top Bleeding
[Re: doctor_mopar]
#321698
06/05/09 09:19 PM
06/05/09 09:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,684
Andrewh
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,684
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Quote:
I bought a new pump from Hydro Electric. They recommend trans fluid. They say if brake fluid is used, the warranty is reduced.
I found the pic. It is stamped in the pump housing fill with type "A" trans fluid.
Which of course isn't made anymore.
But the description made me think power steering. But I filled with dextron III anyway.
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Works for me.
