Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: topside]
#3197489
12/14/23 03:33 PM
12/14/23 03:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,471 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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15% is a fair amount, but seems a bit at odds with a 200 psi reading. Oil through the guides may not show up with either test. It was a long time ago, but the seals I bought were from Silver Seal and are/were blue in color. I can look for the box - I kept it as I had to buy a bunch - and I may have enough left that I could send you some. Im going off memory. But best I can think most were in the 7-8 % loss. and maybe 2 or 3 were a little over 10% , Again been a while so I'm not 100% certain of those numbers. After i thought about it I dont think any were in the 15% range But I do remember all 8 were in the low 200psi range on a compression ck I went thru the valves right after I bought it and ckd the valve seals at that time and all were present and best I could tell still very pliable. Sorry,,,,but I dont remember what type seals are on it Whats real odd. This past spring when I changed the oil ( I run straight 30 weight Rotella with a bottle of Lucas ZDDP additive ) And I ran it to Phoenix and back and oil was still on full. Thats about 300 miles round trip give or take. Its after it gets maybe 400-500 ( approx ) miles on it, it will use a qt every 100-150 miles.
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: gtx6970]
#3197504
12/14/23 04:13 PM
12/14/23 04:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,226 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,226
Benton, IL.
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What oil pan are you running? We used to always run a quart low with stock oil pans on big blocks and Hemis. Because the top quart would ALWAYS disappear. The second quart often would not. I have heard differing opinions as to what was going on. But I have seen many, many times where these engines would lose the top quart of oil when the stock pan was full. And lose it pretty quick, too.
But running a quart low can be dangerous, particularly on a Hemi, so be careful. But it still might be worth a test to see if your major oil consumption is limited to the top quart in the pan or not.
Master, again and still
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3197508
12/14/23 04:28 PM
12/14/23 04:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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What oil pan are you running? We used to always run a quart low with stock oil pans on big blocks and Hemis. Because the top quart would ALWAYS disappear. The second quart often would not. I have heard differing opinions as to what was going on. But I have seen many, many times where these engines would lose the top quart of oil when the stock pan was full. And lose it pretty quick, too.
But running a quart low can be dangerous, particularly on a Hemi, so be careful. But it still might be worth a test to see if your major oil consumption is limited to the top quart in the pan or not. I experienced the same on a 383hp that was still factory build. The top quart always disappeared like clockwork. Fast and no real trace. Always. After a few years I did notice the back of the car had a faint brownish tanish film look. It was VR1 regular oil, not synthetic. Never saw it burn though. I ran a road race pan on that car so it really wasn’t an issue for starvation. Oddly I had a 72 440 factory build that smoked a little at high rpm’s guys would notice, but it didn’t use any oil. Ever. Go figure. I didn’t use vr1 back then. My current car has an unknown history 440, supposed to be 72,000 miles. Haven’t caught it doing anything like that, but has a slight leak. First time I had to add any was this summer and it wasn’t much. It was kinda weird as it was full and then the oil disappeared by the next check. Starting to wonder if vr1 cleans out deposits and the burning begins. This one had synthetic when I got it, but I found it to make the leak worse so I went to the Dino.
I want my fair share
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: gtx6970]
#3197510
12/14/23 04:32 PM
12/14/23 04:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Someplace you aren't
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15% is a fair amount, but seems a bit at odds with a 200 psi reading. Oil through the guides may not show up with either test. It was a long time ago, but the seals I bought were from Silver Seal and are/were blue in color. I can look for the box - I kept it as I had to buy a bunch - and I may have enough left that I could send you some. Im going off memory. But best I can think most were in the 7-8 % loss. and maybe 2 or 3 were a little over 10% , Again been a while so I'm not 100% certain of those numbers. After i thought about it I dont think any were in the 15% range But I do remember all 8 were in the low 200psi range on a compression ck I went thru the valves right after I bought it and ckd the valve seals at that time and all were present and best I could tell still very pliable. Sorry,,,,but I dont remember what type seals are on it Whats real odd. This past spring when I changed the oil ( I run straight 30 weight Rotella with a bottle of Lucas ZDDP additive ) And I ran it to Phoenix and back and oil was still on full. Thats about 300 miles round trip give or take. Its after it gets maybe 400-500 ( approx ) miles on it, it will use a qt every 100-150 miles. My thought for best bang for buck and prevention of bigger issues all the sudden, would be a basic tear down for rings and bearings, plus check valve job. Check cam lobes. True everything up as necessary, that kinda deal. Hopefully you dont need pistons, but if you do, you were screwed long term anyway. I wouldn’t stroke it or do any porting etc.
I want my fair share
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3197518
12/14/23 05:31 PM
12/14/23 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469 Omaha Ne
TJP
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I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
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These engines are notorious for sucking oil through the intake gasket. I have personally fought this issue on an engine. They can consume a substantial amount of oil that way and since that oil contains no octane, it can make the engine much more prone to spark knock. BEFORE you tear your engine down, check those intake ports for oil and the back sides of the intake valves for deposits. Just in case. All it takes is one or two cylinders sucking oil to cause those issues. the other area is through the spark plug/tubes. Several companies made a press in Aluminum socket that uses an o-ring to seal against the out side on the spark plug tube. I believe milodon , barton, mancini and possibly a few others offer them. the current ones will not work on aluminum heads without modification.
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: TJP]
#3197525
12/14/23 06:12 PM
12/14/23 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,471 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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These engines are notorious for sucking oil through the intake gasket. I have personally fought this issue on an engine. They can consume a substantial amount of oil that way and since that oil contains no octane, it can make the engine much more prone to spark knock. BEFORE you tear your engine down, check those intake ports for oil and the back sides of the intake valves for deposits. Just in case. All it takes is one or two cylinders sucking oil to cause those issues. the other area is through the spark plug/tubes. Several companies made a press in Aluminum socket that uses an o-ring to seal against the out side on the spark plug tube. I believe milodon , barton, mancini and possibly a few others offer them. the current ones will not work on aluminum heads without modification. My thought for best bang for buck and prevention of bigger issues all the sudden, would be a basic tear down for rings and bearings, plus check valve job. Check cam lobes. True everything up as necessary, that kinda deal. Hopefully you dont need pistons, but if you do, you were screwed long term anyway. I wouldn’t stroke it or do any porting etc. If I pull it down , it will get pistons no question simply for the compression it has. So, getting away that cheap aint gonna happen. Thus my original question " Stroke it or not " . And deep down I just dont feel that need. And I plan to pull valve covers to do the valves in the spring. And plan is to install the milodon tubes at that time. Because it does get oil in a couple tubes, even though the tubes were new about 2 years back. I'll look into cking / doing valve seals at that time.
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: A12]
#3197526
12/14/23 06:15 PM
12/14/23 06:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,471 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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To build a 2nd engine I figure is mid $20s at a minimum and , upper $20s most likely. Bill you may be right but may be mid $20......hey it's only money Yea,,,,MY money. Unless of course you're offering ??????? Come on Mike you know you want to ? I'll let you take it for a drive next summer if you do ,, LoL
Last edited by gtx6970; 12/14/23 06:16 PM.
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: gtx6970]
#3197536
12/14/23 06:49 PM
12/14/23 06:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,528 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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To build a 2nd engine I figure is mid $20s at a minimum and , upper $20s most likely. Bill you may be right but may be mid $20......hey it's only money Yea,,,,MY money. Unless of course you're offering ??????? Come on Mike you know you want to ? I'll let you take it for a drive next summer if you do ,, LoL
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: A12]
#3197659
12/15/23 02:58 AM
12/15/23 02:58 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 713 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
super stock
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super stock
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Lake Villa Il
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Can you guys explain further in terms of "the top quart would disappear" I'm not getting that.
When I put my engine together I marked the oil pan (milodon 31580) in capacity/level. I found it was less capacity (than advertised) when reaching the level of the windage tray, but never experienced a disappearing quart after starting.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: INTMD8]
#3197660
12/15/23 03:18 AM
12/15/23 03:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,257 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,257
Bend,OR USA
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A freshly built motor will trap oil in the low points in the casting around the lifter bores and in other above the crankshaft centerline in places that will not drain back into the oil pan on the first start up also in the oil galleys :and on every surface inside the motor that didn't have oil splashed or split on it while being assembled shruggy:
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: INTMD8]
#3197676
12/15/23 09:26 AM
12/15/23 09:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I Live Here
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Can you guys explain further in terms of "the top quart would disappear" I'm not getting that.
When I put my engine together I marked the oil pan (milodon 31580) in capacity/level. I found it was less capacity (than advertised) when reaching the level of the windage tray, but never experienced a disappearing quart after starting. When you fill to the full mark on the factory dipstick, the engine will quickly lose a quart. It won’t go below being a quart low. The one I was talking about did that regularly. It became normal to me so I didn’t freak out after seeing that happen awhile. It’s puzzling to have happen. You don’t see Dino oil burning out the exhaust, the plugs don’t foul, it runs perfect, it’s sealed up. It just goes away. If it were valve seals it should keep going down after first quart. Or you’d see it out the tailpipe. The one I’m talking about had a 31580 and I resealed the entire engine when I did the chain and put it in the car the first time.
I want my fair share
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#3197681
12/15/23 10:02 AM
12/15/23 10:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,226 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,226
Benton, IL.
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I have heard speculation that it has something to do with the crank vaporizing the oil at that level when run hard. Which would explain the particulars of the problem. I don't know myself why it happened.
I can tell you that I have seen it many times. On stock engines in particular. We used to have to keep a sharp eye on our oil level. It needed to be about a quart low in order not to be adding oil regularly. At the same time, we didn't want it to get much lower due to the risk of losing oil pressure under hard accel or decel. Fortunately there usually wasn't much change when kept a quart low unless the engine was getting tired.
But the top quart of oil in big blocks had a nasty habit of exiting the engine some way or other. I have never experienced that with any small block. Has anyone experienced that with the small blocks?
Master, again and still
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3197710
12/15/23 11:51 AM
12/15/23 11:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I Live Here
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I have heard speculation that it has something to do with the crank vaporizing the oil at that level when run hard. Which would explain the particulars of the problem. I don't know myself why it happened.
I can tell you that I have seen it many times. On stock engines in particular. We used to have to keep a sharp eye on our oil level. It needed to be about a quart low in order not to be adding oil regularly. At the same time, we didn't want it to get much lower due to the risk of losing oil pressure under hard accel or decel. Fortunately there usually wasn't much change when kept a quart low unless the engine was getting tired.
But the top quart of oil in big blocks had a nasty habit of exiting the engine some way or other. I have never experienced that with any small block. Has anyone experienced that with the small blocks? Something I thought of was the oil being thrown up into the bores by the crank, and that somehow got past the rings a bit at a time. Being that it was more oil than normally gets there. I’ve never heard this about other brand cars and really this is the first I’ve heard somebody else notice it. I told the people when I sold that car and they just sorta looked at me funny. Also I’ve never had a small block do it. Had a 22,000 mile 79 truck in the mix. Others were high miles, but they didn’t use any oil and even didn’t leak like big blocks seem to when I get them.
I want my fair share
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: gtx6970]
#3197743
12/15/23 02:43 PM
12/15/23 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471 So Cal
autoxcuda
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So Cal
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That is the question
I don't race it .... Hardly beat on it outside of the occasional burst when i get the urge.
So....unless it's a race car ....what's the point?
I can understand if it needs a crank or something. Outside of that....why??
Would like to hear pros and cons either way! Maintain a certain level of HP and Torque while keeping the street-abilty. Use less compression and more street friendly gas but make the same HP/TQ. Hemi's are detonation resistant. But 12.5 seems high. Sometimes the stroker kit cost negates some costly machining: Crank Grinding, Rod Re-sizing. That may be more prevalent with the higher volume Small and Big Block kits. I didn't think there were many Hemi stroker kits out there. I drove Troy's Hemi Dart back from Spring Fling 2 years ago. It's got a 472 stroker with I think 10.5 compression. Very mild easy cruising. Even with the cross ram. He has a 110 centerline on the cam. But when you get on it... It's another animal.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 12/20/23 12:26 AM.
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Re: Street hemi build to stroke or not to stroke
[Re: autoxcuda]
#3197746
12/15/23 03:05 PM
12/15/23 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,471 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
OP
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OP
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It's a dry heat
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That is the question
I don't race it .... Hardly beat on it outside of the occasional burst when i get the urge.
So....unless it's a race car ....what's the point?
I can understand if it needs a crank or something. Outside of that....why??
Would like to hear pros and cons either way! Maintain a certain level of HP and Torque while keeping the street-abilty. Use less compression and more street friendly gas but make the same HP/TQ. Hemi are detonation resistant. But 12.5 seems high. Sometimes the stroker kit cost negates some costly machining: Crank Grinding, Rod Re-sizing. That may be more prevalent with the higher volume Small and Big Block kits. I didn't think there were many Hemi stroker kits out there. I drove Troy's Hemi Dart back from Spring Fling 2 years ago. It's got a 472 stroker with I think 10.5 compression. Very mild easy cruising. Even with the cross ram. He has a 110 centerline on the cam. But when you get on it... It's another animal. Thanks Steve, I want to talk to Troy next spring . See you then
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