Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: ruderunner]
#3183567
10/13/23 10:08 AM
10/13/23 10:08 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788
Holland MI Ottawa
|
I realize your not asking about intake manifolds but I saw Richard Holdener dynoing intake manifolds on a smogger 460 Ford truck engine. The OEM iron intake that has zero height to it made the best power way down low- what one would want in a tow vehicle. It made better low end power than the Edelbrock Performer. Was out of steam by like 4200RPM if I recall correctly. Sometimes its nice to be able to run what ya got and not spend any additional $$.
Keep old mopars alive.
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: olwhite64]
#3185270
10/20/23 12:18 PM
10/20/23 12:18 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,118 Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,118
Byron, NY
|
Since my boy is now a racer, we need another tow rig. Going to convert my '86 D-150 (318/Auto) over to big block power to do the job. This truck will be hooked onto an open 18' steel/wood deck trailer towing a B-body 80 miles (roundtrip) to the track maybe 8-10 times a year; plus occasional trips to the local tavern with my bride.
I snagged up an '81 Dodge RV with 61,xxx miles on the odometer. 440/long-tail 727. Just doing some really basic stuff to the 440 (reseal, headers, Performer RPM intake, 600 Edelbrock, maybe a cam for towing if anyone has any ideas) as well as converting it to an 8 3/4 with 3.55's. Of course, I'll add a large auxiliary cooler to the trans (and maybe the engine oil too?).
My questions really center around the transmission.
Research tells me RV-spec tranny's should have some good stuff already (4 pinion planetary's, extra clutch, etc.).
Any recommendations on internal upgrades or just clean/freshen/replace what's already in there?
How about a shift kit?
The converter that is currently in the transmission has a large ring gear but also has a sticker on it that says "low-stall".
I suspect they used these to get these giant bread-box lumbering barges moving?
So, maybe the converter is perfect for the application?
Any other thoughts/concerns I'm not seeing? When I used to tow with this truck it had a 440/TF with an "Edelbrock Performer Package" that consisted of an intake, carb and cam (and related parts), along with a set of headers. The truck would effortlessly pull a 36' enclosed Gooseneck and pass anything but a gas station (4mpg avg). To solve that issue I Pulled it and slipped in a Cummins! The TF was nothing special other than as mentioned a Shift kit and good converter. TF are a very robust transmission. Treat them well and you will get great service life from them.
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60 '01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust, '05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list '60 Willys CJ5 '01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison '64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: olwhite64]
#3185294
10/20/23 01:52 PM
10/20/23 01:52 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788
Holland MI Ottawa
|
I do have a stock '70 intake I could put on I suppose; just figured aluminum would dissipate the heat better, maybe make for less vapor-lock issues? I was assuming you didn't have an alternative aluminum dual plane. By all means- run the Performer. Idle to 5500 is perfect for a truck.
Keep old mopars alive.
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3186349
10/25/23 09:51 AM
10/25/23 09:51 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 615 High Plains of South Dakota
olwhite64
OP
mopar
|
OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 615
High Plains of South Dakota
|
I do have a stock '70 intake I could put on I suppose; just figured aluminum would dissipate the heat better, maybe make for less vapor-lock issues? I was assuming you didn't have an alternative aluminum dual plane. By all means- run the Performer. Idle to 5500 is perfect for a truck. From my reading, it would appear as the original "440 Performer" was just an aluminum version of an iron intake and might be a better choice for maximum torque as well as lighter weight/cooler under the carb, though I've never had one. What are everybody's thoughts on that? What should a guy pay for one if one pops up for sale? Is there another like it?
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: olwhite64]
#3186370
10/25/23 10:59 AM
10/25/23 10:59 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788
Holland MI Ottawa
|
"From my reading, it would appear as the original "440 Performer" was just an aluminum version of an iron intake and might be a better choice for maximum torque as well as lighter weight/cooler under the carb, though I've never had one.
What are everybody's thoughts on that? What should a guy pay for one if one pops up for sale? Is there another like it?"
My opinion is to run a factory iron intake for towing. The lighter weight of the aluminum unit is null and void on a big truck. Heat dissipation improvement will be unnoticeable. But if one likes to tinker then by all means install one. Not everyone is on a shoe string budget and it is a hobby of tinkering. But I would focus my effort on a nice quiet true dual exhaust system. Not necessarily headers- but quality dual pipes of proper diameter and pleasant sounding mufflers.
Keep old mopars alive.
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: W.I.N. Racing]
#3186389
10/25/23 12:11 PM
10/25/23 12:11 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,118 Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,118
Byron, NY
|
Since my boy is now a racer, we need another tow rig. Going to convert my '86 D-150 (318/Auto) over to big block power to do the job. This truck will be hooked onto an open 18' steel/wood deck trailer towing a B-body 80 miles (roundtrip) to the track maybe 8-10 times a year; plus occasional trips to the local tavern with my bride.
I snagged up an '81 Dodge RV with 61,xxx miles on the odometer. 440/long-tail 727. Just doing some really basic stuff to the 440 (reseal, headers, Performer RPM intake, 600 Edelbrock, maybe a cam for towing if anyone has any ideas) as well as converting it to an 8 3/4 with 3.55's. Of course, I'll add a large auxiliary cooler to the trans (and maybe the engine oil too?).
My questions really center around the transmission.
Research tells me RV-spec tranny's should have some good stuff already (4 pinion planetary's, extra clutch, etc.).
Any recommendations on internal upgrades or just clean/freshen/replace what's already in there?
How about a shift kit?
The converter that is currently in the transmission has a large ring gear but also has a sticker on it that says "low-stall".
I suspect they used these to get these giant bread-box lumbering barges moving?
So, maybe the converter is perfect for the application?
Any other thoughts/concerns I'm not seeing? When I used to tow with this truck it had a 440/TF with an "Edelbrock Performer Package" that consisted of an intake, carb and cam (and related parts), along with a set of headers. The truck would effortlessly pull a 36' enclosed Gooseneck and pass anything but a gas station (4mpg avg). To solve that issue I Pulled it and slipped in a Cummins! The TF was nothing special other than as mentioned a Shift kit and good converter. TF are a very robust transmission. Treat them well and you will get great service life from them. On mine I got tired of Header leaks and fixing them so I switched to manifolds...Killed the performance...help seal the deal for the Cummins swap
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60 '01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust, '05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list '60 Willys CJ5 '01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison '64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: topside]
#3201628
01/02/24 12:54 PM
01/02/24 12:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 615 High Plains of South Dakota
olwhite64
OP
mopar
|
OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 615
High Plains of South Dakota
|
Torque for that application is King, as well as keeping highway RPM in the meat of the torque curve, usually around 2600-2800 RPM. MPG benefits when using as little throttle opening as possible while pulling. While my 408 made very good TQ in a Duster, it didn't compare to an RB. Thermoquads are great in that application, 2nd best a vac-secondary. I'd use the existing MH converter. Shift kits are a good thing, as they reduce the shift overlap; doesn't need anything racy.
Since the OP already has the MH 440/727 and the 318 is tired, the path forward seems pretty obvious. Make sure you can cool it, and add an ATF cooler. I like deep pans on everything. OK fellas - my transmission guy has the 727 opened up and it was starting the slow burn it would appear. His concern (very valid, and I'm in agreement) is if I reuse the existing TC it's probably got quite bit of trash/clutch material in it. Existing TC does NOT have a drain plug like I've seen on others. SO, is there a way to "clean" (flush?) the existing torque converter OR do I just look for a reman'd unit to stab in? I'm trying to pinch some pennies on this deal (as I've got like 17 other irons in the fire). I did have another member here offer me a new towing TC but it's just a little more $$$ than I have to spend right now... Ideas?
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: olwhite64]
#3201679
01/02/24 02:36 PM
01/02/24 02:36 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,589 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
|
"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,589
north of coder
|
any torque converters i have seen flushed had a drain plug in them. now with that said, i don't have a clue about the converter flush machines of today that are out there in transmission repair shops. as for drain plugs, in the past, i have added a 1/8"npt plug just by drilling and tapping the converter. used heavy grease on the drill and tap, then stuck the shop vac hose over the hole and turned it on for a while. i followed this up by standing the converter up so the drain was on the bottom, then filling an empty squeeze bottle with kerosene, and squeezing it into the converter snout, repeating until the kerosene ran clear. followed this by filling converter with atf, "swishing" converter around and then draining atf, doing this a couple of times until the atf was the original consistency drained as it was when poured into the snout. this method worked good, and i had no converter failures doing so. however, this was way back in the mid 70's to mid 80's that i did this, so with re-man converters being [relatively] cheap these days, i would pop for a re-man. just my personal life experience. your mileage will vary.
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3202722
01/06/24 01:52 PM
01/06/24 01:52 PM
|
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,306 nowhere
Sniper
master
|
master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,306
nowhere
|
I realize your not asking about intake manifolds but I saw Richard Holdener dynoing intake manifolds on a smogger 460 Ford truck engine. The OEM iron intake that has zero height to it made the best power way down low- what one would want in a tow vehicle. It made better low end power than the Edelbrock Performer. Was out of steam by like 4200RPM if I recall correctly. Sometimes its nice to be able to run what ya got and not spend any additional $$. Any data collected on a 460 is relevant, to a 460. It is not relevant to a 440, unless you can somehow make a 460 intake work on a 440.
|
|
|
Re: 440/727 towing combination
[Re: Sniper]
#3202778
01/06/24 03:43 PM
01/06/24 03:43 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788
Holland MI Ottawa
|
I realize your not asking about intake manifolds but I saw Richard Holdener dynoing intake manifolds on a smogger 460 Ford truck engine. The OEM iron intake that has zero height to it made the best power way down low- what one would want in a tow vehicle. It made better low end power than the Edelbrock Performer. Was out of steam by like 4200RPM if I recall correctly. Sometimes its nice to be able to run what ya got and not spend any additional $$. Any data collected on a 460 is relevant, to a 460. It is not relevant to a 440, unless you can somehow make a 460 intake work on a 440. I disagree. My point is that often an OEM iron intake is regarded as low perf and useless. A factory intake manifold does work well in CERTAIN applications. In the application of low RPM grunt towing - a factory 4BBL intake is actually very very good. I was pointing out to the original poster that if he only had the factory intake- then he's good to go. But he has a Performer which is idle to 5500 RPM and that's a great intake as well even the regular Performer offers no improvement in power of a factory mopar iron intake. The weight savings may be important to the owner or it may not.
Last edited by 2boltmain; 01/06/24 03:44 PM.
Keep old mopars alive.
|
|
|
|
|