Bearing check please
#3165147
08/02/23 05:04 PM
08/02/23 05:04 PM
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RMCHRGR
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I am taking apart a 416" that I built several years ago to refresh it and change some top end parts. This engine has only seen dyno time but then afterwards it sat for 7+ years. I used the appropriate sticky red assembly lube on all the bearing surfaces and journals. The oil system was primed before startup. The engine fired on the first try during the break-in and was run through the proper break-in procedure. Oil pressure was fine.
To me, these rod bearings look a little rough but I'm not sure. Clearly there was some dirt in the engine but as far as I could tell, there were no visible shavings in the oil pan or stuck to the drain plug. I'm wondering if junk got in there while it was sitting and the rash happened when it was turned over? I suppose the bearings did their job embedding whatever debris was in there. All 8 look like this to some degree.
My question is do I need to get new bearings? I have not taken the crank out yet so I don't know if those look the same. The rod journals on the crank seem OK though, I don't see any gouges or what have you. Obviously I need to do a better job cleaning when I reassemble it.
Thanks for any input.
Greg
Last edited by RMCHRGR; 08/02/23 05:06 PM.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3165274
08/03/23 10:19 AM
08/03/23 10:19 AM
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Well here is the #2 cap bearing.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: Moparteacher]
#3165621
08/04/23 06:15 PM
08/04/23 06:15 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I think I'm going to get new bearings. These are King XP bearings, probably some of the best bearings out there. Replacing them is not going to be cheap so this was an expensive lesson in cleanliness.
These are not the coated type but they do have electroplating. I might get the coated type this time. If debris gets in the engine the coating is supposed to re-embed itself into the bearing surface which is like another layer of protection. The clearances are the same.
Except for lubing the parts, I've never done anything to bearings before putting them in. Sorry, but I can't see polishing them with paper or taking Scotchbrite to these would do anything except remove the top layer.
Hard to figure what could be wrong with the crank finish? Not that it has anything to do with wear but the crank turns so effortlessly in the block, it's almost fun to spin it by hand. The lines almost look like chatter marks. I'll double check everything before buttoning up the bottom end but the clearances were damn near perfect.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: RMCHRGR]
#3165623
08/04/23 06:25 PM
08/04/23 06:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Michigan
A727Tflite
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Back in the 60’s and 70’s Chrysler used aluminum bearings in some or most applications, uncoated.
Edit.
Those bearings have consistent wear marks, evenly spaced. That means only one thing, poor finish grind if on one journal. If on all journals it’s part of the machining process of the bearings.
You can’t get dirt to be evenly spaced like that.
Good luck.
Last edited by A727Tflite; 08/04/23 09:56 PM.
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3165625
08/04/23 06:51 PM
08/04/23 06:51 PM
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Mr PotatoHead
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How tight are your clearances? I have a set of bearings, king coated that show them exact same lines and they were on a K1 crank. In my case they were just a bit on the tight side. I did not re use them. Can take pics if it would help.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3165656
08/04/23 08:29 PM
08/04/23 08:29 PM
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How tight are your clearances? I have a set of bearings, king coated that show them exact same lines and they were on a K1 crank. In my case they were just a bit on the tight side. I did not re use them. Can take pics if it would help. Clearances are .0025". My machinist is very good. I double checked it with Plastigage on assembly, was right on the money. Pics would be great if you can, thanks. I'd like to see for my own edification as I'm sure others might too. I'd rather not get new main bearings if there's no need.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: RMCHRGR]
#3165659
08/04/23 09:34 PM
08/04/23 09:34 PM
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Mr PotatoHead
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So is it crank imperfections or something in the bearing MFG process? This was a K1 forged stroker kit and owner was set on using kings vs the supplied clevite.
The story here is a friend had a box fresh R block and had all the machine work done including align hone. He asked if he could bring it over and use my test stand to break in cam. It had crazy high OP from the start 90 idle and up from there so we knew something was wrong but it never got over 160 and cam broke in without issue.
After an oil change and maybe a total 1 hour run time with a few blips just over 4k it was the same high op. I told him imo it would not fly as it was and there was some material in the filter. Turns out there was a skirt issue that the mfg. went well above to correct.
When I pulled the crank I found two like this, was supposed to be king extra .001 mains but there were two STD halves in the lowers. This did not shock me because I myself have found this three times with King Bearings. They seem to understand it happens as they are quick to take care of it.
So I started to measure things further. He says he told the machine shop he needed at the end of the day .003 on the mains but in reality someone got crossed as there was a consistent .0015 TOTAL. (He used a shop not deep into performance builds and maybe that was part of the confusion, who knows)
So block went back to get align honed properly. Pistons got replaced by mfg. and King sent a new set of matched bearings and all was happy after that.
The pattern looks much like yours... Please keep in mind some of the dirt might be from these being in the "oops" box on my junk shelf for like 5 years, maybe longer so I had to wash and they have been tossed around a good but without care.
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3165663
08/04/23 09:59 PM
08/04/23 09:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,075
Michigan
A727Tflite
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So is it crank imperfections or something in the bearing MFG process? This was a K1 forged stroker kit and owner was set on using kings vs the supplied clevite.
The story here is a friend had a box fresh R block and had all the machine work done including align hone. He asked if he could bring it over and use my test stand to break in cam. It had crazy high OP from the start 90 idle and up from there so we knew something was wrong but it never got over 160 and cam broke in without issue.
After an oil change and maybe a total 1 hour run time with a few blips just over 4k it was the same high op. I told him imo it would not fly as it was and there was some material in the filter. Turns out there was a skirt issue that the mfg. went well above to correct.
When I pulled the crank I found two like this, was supposed to be king extra .001 mains but there were two STD halves in the lowers. This did not shock me because I myself have found this three times with King Bearings. They seem to understand it happens as they are quick to take care of it.
So I started to measure things further. He says he told the machine shop he needed at the end of the day .003 on the mains but in reality someone got crossed as there was a consistent .0015 TOTAL. (He used a shop not deep into performance builds and maybe that was part of the confusion, who knows)
So block went back to get align honed properly. Pistons got replaced by mfg. and King sent a new set of matched bearings and all was happy after that.
The pattern looks much like yours... Please keep in mind some of the dirt might be from these being in the "oops" box on my junk shelf for like 5 years, maybe longer so I had to wash and they have been tossed around a good but without care.
I edited my post - I agree, these marks being from the bearing manufacturing process if all the bearings in a set look the same and not on just one bearing upper/lower.
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3165667
08/04/23 10:14 PM
08/04/23 10:14 PM
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The pattern looks much like yours... There you go, thank you! Has to be the way they make the bearings. I will call King again on Monday and see if they will confirm this is normal. Still going to replace the rod bearings because of the one badly scratched one but seems like the mains are OK. If it was a crank journal finish issue you'd think there would be some sort of damage to the crank journals themselves which there isn't.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: RMCHRGR]
#3165671
08/04/23 10:27 PM
08/04/23 10:27 PM
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Mr PotatoHead
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This whole set showed like the one I posted. I also noticed you posted yours were from many years ago. I know this deal I explained was at least five years ago possibly longer, I will look in my notebook tomorrow just for kicks.
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Re: Bearing check please
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3165673
08/04/23 10:27 PM
08/04/23 10:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Spahn Ranch
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I edited my post - I agree, these marks being from the bearing manufacturing process if all the bearings in a set look the same and not on just one bearing upper/lower. Agree, thanks.
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
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