Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
ladder bar setup #3141880
05/01/23 09:50 PM
05/01/23 09:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
B
birdtracker Offline OP
super stock
birdtracker  Offline OP
super stock
B

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
3,000 pound car 14X32 slicks, trans brake. 28 inch bars. Bar flat or angled? Birdtracker

ladder 1.jpgladder 2.png
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3141885
05/01/23 10:32 PM
05/01/23 10:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
68roadrunner Offline
super stock
68roadrunner  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
Depends on hp, front travel and weight bias

Typically 2-4 degrees down in the front

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3141904
05/02/23 03:01 AM
05/02/23 03:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by birdtracker
3,000 pound car 14X32 slicks, trans brake. 28 inch bars. Bar flat or angled? Birdtracker
Test, test and test some more so you learn what works best on YOUR CAR wrenchup twocents
Both Dusters I had (one leaf spring and one coil over) like, best 60ft. and reaction times, the front eye in the lowest hole in the front brackets shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: Cab_Burge] #3141908
05/02/23 06:41 AM
05/02/23 06:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,343
west palm beach, florida
modelmakerinc Offline
top fuel
modelmakerinc  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,343
west palm beach, florida
78 D-150 I installed the bars at 2.5* nose down in their lowest position, with the expectation to be installed for initial use one hole up. this will give us a little adjustment to increase or soften (lower or raise respectively) the "Hit'

The trucks chassis posed some issues due to how low the front crossmember was going to be installed, a cars chassis is considerably different and you should be able to set it up to use (adjust-ability for tuning) 4 or all 5 front holes

1 truck 3.jpg
Last edited by modelmakerinc; 05/02/23 10:19 AM.

Exceptional Architectural, Yacht and Automotive scale models. e-mail modelmakerinc@att.net for a portfolio review. www.modelmakerinc.com
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: modelmakerinc] #3141912
05/02/23 07:43 AM
05/02/23 07:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,296
NE Ohio
DoubleD Offline
top fuel
DoubleD  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,296
NE Ohio
Personally I like flat (AKA Neutral) - in the middle hole - that gives you adjustment up or down - I have tried the deep down angle with canted shocks before in a 64B body full chassis car- it lasted one race and then we re-did the whole back end to a neutral position

If you have the room for a five hole front mount - go for it - in the end once you have it where it performs best - you probably will never change the front location again - just adjust with shocks.

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: DoubleD] #3141922
05/02/23 08:48 AM
05/02/23 08:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
moparacer Offline
top fuel
moparacer  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
Slicks, I say it's going to work best with a few degrees down angle.

If you put a drag radial on it then you might level it out.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3141925
05/02/23 09:03 AM
05/02/23 09:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline
super stock
jwb123  Offline
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
The only bad thing about a ladder bar setup is if it is right, it works great, if it is installed wrong not much you can do about it, except cut brackets off and start again. Plus if you keep the car and keep improving it, what happens when you overpower the suspension and lack of adjustment keeps you from tuning it? For just a little more time and money a 4-link will give you adjustment and maybe even make the car worth more when it is time to sell.
I like to use a suspension program like Performance Trends 4-link calculator, it also does ladder bar setups. plug in the numbers and see where those brackets need to be welded.

https://www.performancetrends.com/4link.htm

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: jwb123] #3141936
05/02/23 09:38 AM
05/02/23 09:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
moparacer Offline
top fuel
moparacer  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
Originally Posted by jwb123
The only bad thing about a ladder bar setup is if it is right, it works great, if it is installed wrong not much you can do about it, except cut brackets off and start again. Plus if you keep the car and keep improving it, what happens when you overpower the suspension and lack of adjustment keeps you from tuning it? For just a little more time and money a 4-link will give you adjustment and maybe even make the car worth more when it is time to sell.
I like to use a suspension program like Performance Trends 4-link calculator, it also does ladder bar setups. plug in the numbers and see where those brackets need to be welded.

https://www.performancetrends.com/4link.htm


Years ago I had a Dakota pickup that had the chassis brackets installed too high for ladder bars. The bottom hole they still had a slight upward angle. It was too violent and we ended up cutting them off and lowering them to get the bars angles down. Truck was fine after that.

I say put the brackets were the bars are level in the middle hole and you have holes to go up and down for either adjustment.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: DoubleD] #3141939
05/02/23 09:49 AM
05/02/23 09:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,834
MI, usa
dvw Online content
master
dvw  Online Content
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,834
MI, usa
Amgle isn't really a good indicator of what it will want. The centerline of the front heim from the ground is a better indicator. This measurement along with the rear axle centerline from the ground is what matters. Think about the imaginary line drawn between those two points. You could concievably use many different mounting posistions to attach the ladder bar to the rear housing. The bar could end up point up/ down, or level. If those two points remain the same, nothing changes. Most brackets mount in a similar spot on the housing, but not all. This is why people use the bar "level or slightly down" idea. Not because thats necesarrilly where it needs to be. But it happens to fit for their cars set-up. The suspension would react exactly the same. Now what can we change? The height of the axle C/L based on rear tire diameter. The length of the ladder bar itself. This is chosen when they are built. Generally somewhere between 28"-36". And lastly the C/L of the front of the bar from the ground. This will have an adjustable range. How do we chose? Expected power, weight distribution, and type of tire are the four that I think make the most difference. Radial tires will want the heim C/L high. Bias slicks lower. High power will want a longer and lower C/L. If the car doesn't have a ton of power and it's heavily weight biased towards the front the bar could be shorter. No prep needs a higher C/L. 28" is very short. The average bar is about 32". A shorter bar acts on the anti-squat line similar to a higher heim C/L. Ladder bars can provide a ton of hit. Thats why sometimes you can't get the C/L low enough. It takes a longer bar to get the C/L down on the anti-squat line. Radials and no prep want a higher C/L. My car runs 31.5" bias slicks with tubes. The bar is about 7.5" off the ground. The bars are 36" long. Car has 55% of the weight on the nose. Even with 13.5psi and the shocks tight on rear rebound. It wads the tires 20-25 out from the start. Think about how hard a shorter bar would hit.
Doug

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: dvw] #3141993
05/02/23 12:53 PM
05/02/23 12:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
moparacer Offline
top fuel
moparacer  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
The attachment point is the IC DVW as you know and higher is always a higher AS value. Ladder bars are always so short that you always have some ridiculous amount of AS value and are trying to take some of that initial hit out of it and control it with slicks. That is why with slicks its usually better to have the bars running downhill slightly IMO but I realize all cars are different. Shocks control it all too and years ago we never had valving to control the hit properly so we always ran them downhill. Radials and no prep are a different animal.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142120
05/02/23 09:05 PM
05/02/23 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
68roadrunner Offline
super stock
68roadrunner  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 877
ky
I have found a huge difference In 32" to 36" bar length. And 42" on a 116" nose heavy truck works awesome

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: 68roadrunner] #3142130
05/02/23 09:55 PM
05/02/23 09:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
B
birdtracker Offline OP
super stock
birdtracker  Offline OP
super stock
B

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
as always anything I attempt to do, all that I succeed in is the collection of spare parts that end up on a shelf. And today I was mentally exhausted from thinking, numbers, calculating. I guess Rome wasn't built in a day. Birdtracker

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142253
05/03/23 12:09 PM
05/03/23 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,248
fredericksburg,va
C
cudaman1969 Offline
master
cudaman1969  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,248
fredericksburg,va
Draw a line from bottom of tire through front eye to back of cam, first place to start. Moving up one hole brings instant center toward back of car, one hole down goes past engine a little. Weight bias front to back determines where you want the instant center. Farther back the more the a$$ end moves up till HP goes up, it’s a balancing act till car rotates. The front suspension has a tremendous effect on how it all works together. Theoretically you want entire weight of car on the back tires on launch but not rotating to far back.

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142325
05/03/23 04:32 PM
05/03/23 04:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
My old pump gas Duster had 49.4 % weight on the rear tires and 50.6 % on the rear tires, it had coil overs and ladders bars with four holes in the front mounting brackets. It like the lowest whole on the street and at the track up scope I think the lower bar on them was either level or slightly nose down. I did end up changing the rear Strange Egnr. single adjustable shock to their same shock that was double adjustable, that car liked them also, especially at tracks that were not the best on the starting lines wrench up
Try all positions and then decide which one on your car is the best choice.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: ladder bar setup [Re: Cab_Burge] #3142329
05/03/23 04:48 PM
05/03/23 04:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
B
birdtracker Offline OP
super stock
birdtracker  Offline OP
super stock
B

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
so I have the car up on stands right now and the rearend out of it. The axles and pig are out of it. The car will not 60 foot the way it was.The bars were down 9 degrees. I talked to another racer that is old school and he recommended the string from the tire to camshaft and see where that intersects. Work in progress. Birdtracker

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142351
05/03/23 05:52 PM
05/03/23 05:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline
super stock
jwb123  Offline
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
Originally Posted by birdtracker
so I have the car up on stands right now and the rearend out of it. The axles and pig are out of it. The car will not 60 foot the way it was.The bars were down 9 degrees. I talked to another racer that is old school and he recommended the string from the tire to camshaft and see where that intersects. Work in progress. Birdtracker


The height of the camshaft is what is usually used when you don't take the time to calculate the center of gravity vertically for the car. It is a good estimate and I have used it a lot. Real way is to use scales and then jack up the front and use a formula with the weight change to get the real center of gravity height. Most of my experience is with 4-links, and I chased my tail one time, over 60 foot times and when all was said and done the rear spring rates were too stiff. Instant center changes would not solve the issue.

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: jwb123] #3142381
05/03/23 08:50 PM
05/03/23 08:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,834
MI, usa
dvw Online content
master
dvw  Online Content
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,834
MI, usa
What is the current set up? Weight, F/R weight distribution, shocks, springs, ladder bar length, ladder bar front heim bolt C/L height from the ground, ladder bar length, converter, rear gear ratio trans 1st gear ratio, power level.
Doug

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: dvw] #3142382
05/03/23 08:54 PM
05/03/23 08:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
B
birdtracker Offline OP
super stock
birdtracker  Offline OP
super stock
B

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
DVW I sent you a pm. If you want me to post all of it on here I will. This is what I am starting at. Sixtty foot is 1.45 Birdtracker

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142386
05/03/23 09:11 PM
05/03/23 09:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926
B
birdtracker Offline OP
super stock
birdtracker  Offline OP
super stock
B

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 926

Re: ladder bar setup [Re: birdtracker] #3142394
05/03/23 10:02 PM
05/03/23 10:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline
super stock
jwb123  Offline
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
Opinions are like assholes everybody has one. In watching the video, not sure what your ET was, 60 foot and ET has a relationship, but if that video was a 1.45 60 foot, I would be looking for a different converter. The car looks to me to be working pretty well. I could not see real well how it was hitting the tires, but it did not look out of line to me.

Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1