Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
#3125183
02/28/23 02:56 AM
02/28/23 02:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982 Scranton, PA
Montclaire
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
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I need to dial in my carb and want to use a wideband O2 sensor as a diagnostic device. The sensor only needs to mount temporarily. Since the car has 3" exhaust with cutouts, I ordered a set of header reducers and a walker 2.5" pipe with an O2 bung pre-installed. The other option was a unit that mounts an O2 in the tailpipe but I figure the cutouts get me closer to the engine.
The plan was to hook up the O2 to a basic multimeter, which would work for narrowband but apparently not for the wideband. So, back to the drawing board. I'm searching online for a cheap wideband gauge but that isn't going so well. The least expensive seems to be the AEM 30-4110 at around $170, which I have a hard time justifying. I'm thinking there HAS to be a super cheap way to link the O2 to either my phone or a laptop with basic freeware that will give me a digital AFR readout.
Again, this is a temporary, less than ideal hook up for the sake of having an extra layer of feedback for carb tuning. I know very little about oxygen sensors or electronics so whatever you suggest will have to be simple to operate. I'd like to use a LSU 4.9 sensor, which seems to be the standard in 2023. From what I've read, the 4.2s need to be calibrated, while the 4.9s do not.
Thanks
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Montclaire]
#3125272
02/28/23 01:12 PM
02/28/23 01:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
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I need to dial in my carb and want to use a wideband O2 sensor as a diagnostic device. The sensor only needs to mount temporarily. Since the car has 3" exhaust with cutouts, I ordered a set of header reducers and a walker 2.5" pipe with an O2 bung pre-installed. The other option was a unit that mounts an O2 in the tailpipe but I figure the cutouts get me closer to the engine.
The plan was to hook up the O2 to a basic multimeter, which would work for narrowband but apparently not for the wideband. So, back to the drawing board. I'm searching online for a cheap wideband gauge but that isn't going so well. The least expensive seems to be the AEM 30-4110 at around $170, which I have a hard time justifying. I'm thinking there HAS to be a super cheap way to link the O2 to either my phone or a laptop with basic freeware that will give me a digital AFR readout.
Again, this is a temporary, less than ideal hook up for the sake of having an extra layer of feedback for carb tuning. I know very little about oxygen sensors or electronics so whatever you suggest will have to be simple to operate. I'd like to use a LSU 4.9 sensor, which seems to be the standard in 2023. From what I've read, the 4.2s need to be calibrated, while the 4.9s do not.
Thanks
Cheap sounds like your mission statement When it comes to quality, I haven't found any automotive diagnosis devices "cheap" yet. I bought and have used a Innovate LM1 wide ban System and then upgraded it later to LC1 dual wide ban system later, It has HELP me a bunch on tuning carbs in the past I highly recommend buying a good O2 system, not design and develop your own You can use it now and if you don't want to keep it sell it later when your done learning on how to tune all the circuits in this carb. Are you done hot rodding and are you SURE you won't want to the O2 system again on another car or engine project later I have a A.S. degree in electronics and have been drag racing and winning and building Mopar H.P. street and strip motors for a long time, since the late 1960s. I worked for a Telephone company for 33 in customer services in outside plant years and know a little bit about electricity and electronic testing equipment. There are NO good CHEAP multimeters I have several old Tripplett analog multimeters and another later Radio Shack cheaper digital read out multimeter and one good Fluke 80 multimeter that has served me well for a lot of ears, the bes testst instrument works the best Can you afford to burn up a good motor due to a faulty O2 system you designed and developed yourself I've burnt up and broken a lot of race partts in my pursuit of going faster and helping other racers, you can too or try and use thier helpi in preventing you from doing the same mstakes on your own Good luck, either way. Stay safe, don't crash because of bad, cheap or broken cheap parts
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Montclaire]
#3125323
02/28/23 02:52 PM
02/28/23 02:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
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My '68 Barracuda Convertible has a moderate cam (.246 & .252 @ .050 on 108*) in my remapped factory ECM for my EFI system. At idle, the exhaust fumes used to waft into the car and bystanders would scrunch their faces and swat away at the air when I idled by. Tuning had no real effect on reducing the burning eye fumes likely from the significant overlap of the cam.
I welded on a pair of 4 inch racing cats with the plated metal honeycomb instead of the ceramic honeycomb, just behind the collectors. The smell vanished. There was no detectable power loss and it didn't change the sound of the exhaust.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: jbc426]
#3125387
02/28/23 05:50 PM
02/28/23 05:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Learn to read spark plugs. And then get an O2 sensor so you will know when it’s lying to you.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Montclaire]
#3125442
02/28/23 09:34 PM
02/28/23 09:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149 PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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I put narrow band O2 on mine, as I don't worry about the 14-1 to 15-1 range precision. With 10 ethanol it wants 13.5 or so anyway. I use an ADC from work, but an Arduino or sound card will read as well. Most interesting thing is seeing the uneven O2 from the dual plane intake.
Last edited by Ray S; 02/28/23 09:35 PM.
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Ray S]
#3125536
03/01/23 08:08 AM
03/01/23 08:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234 Brisvegas, Australia
Alchemi
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
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Here you go, $95 plus post, some soldering required. Add $30 to not solder with the model up Thier real products look pretty good too, have seen very frew negative remarks for thier products https://www.14point7.com/products/sigma-lambda-controller-free-2 $45 without the sensor I don't think using a cut out and short length of tube will work the best. One of the reasons the sensor is meant to be as close to the port as possible is to avoid outside air contamination from the end of the exhaust system If you're already playing with Arduino style stuff you might get out of it cheaper than that, but at the expense of time and faffing about.
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Montclaire]
#3125603
03/01/23 11:20 AM
03/01/23 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
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I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.
You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.
The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.
Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one.
Master, again and still
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Alchemi]
#3125725
03/01/23 06:13 PM
03/01/23 06:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982 Scranton, PA
Montclaire
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
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Here you go, $95 plus post, some soldering required. Add $30 to not solder with the model up Thier real products look pretty good too, have seen very frew negative remarks for thier products https://www.14point7.com/products/sigma-lambda-controller-free-2 $45 without the sensor I don't think using a cut out and short length of tube will work the best. One of the reasons the sensor is meant to be as close to the port as possible is to avoid outside air contamination from the end of the exhaust system If you're already playing with Arduino style stuff you might get out of it cheaper than that, but at the expense of time and faffing about. That's actually looks pretty good for the price. I found a second hand Innovate LC2 on facebook for $50 so I'm going to give that a try. The only other temporary mount that I found was one that clamps to the exhaust tip. Mounting the sensor to the cut out is closer to the headpipe, and it's a more solid mount so I can get a read with the car in motion. I'm going to leave it a touch rich anyway, it should be fine. Thanks
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3125730
03/01/23 06:30 PM
03/01/23 06:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982 Scranton, PA
Montclaire
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
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I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.
You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.
The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.
Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one. The carb is a 800 cfm Edelbrock AVS2 on a dual plane 440, which is reasonably close to OE application. I am tuning for the street, which as you point out is much more involved than how I would have tuned the thing in my younger years when it was either at idle or I had my foot in the water pump. I'm especially interested to see what's going on from off-idle to light cruise in real time, something I'm not going to get from just reading plugs. I've driven carbureted vehicles for a long time so I'm not expecting miracles. What I am expecting is to have some real data to guide me instead of just a shot in the dark.
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Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning?
[Re: Montclaire]
#3125783
03/01/23 09:24 PM
03/01/23 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
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I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.
You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.
The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.
Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one. The carb is a 800 cfm Edelbrock AVS2 on a dual plane 440, which is reasonably close to OE application. I am tuning for the street, which as you point out is much more involved than how I would have tuned the thing in my younger years when it was either at idle or I had my foot in the water pump. I'm especially interested to see what's going on from off-idle to light cruise in real time, something I'm not going to get from just reading plugs. I've driven carbureted vehicles for a long time so I'm not expecting miracles. What I am expecting is to have some real data to guide me instead of just a shot in the dark. The CarterBrocks are absolutely the hardest carbs out there to tune in the transitions. At least for most folks. Nothing in that area can be adjusted without drill bits. While they may be the closest platform to some of the OE carbs, their tunes are not OE. If you are really going to tackle carb tuning for a street application, you might do well to consider any of the myriad versions of the Holley 4150. Much, much easier to tune for the less experienced tuner and you can get tuning parts at almost any auto parts store. Try that with the CarterBrocks. And just to be clear, the CarterBrocks are not bad in and of themselves. It's just that their tune is usually farther off base than a correct version of a 4150, are harder to tune than the 4150s, and are much harder to find parts for. Here is a tuning chart for the CarterBrocks. The fun starts about page 9, and peaks on page 13. Just looking at their tuning charts is a trip all by itself. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. https://edelbrock-instructions-v1.s3.amazonaws.com/edelbrock/carb-tuning-guide.pdf
Master, again and still
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