Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? #3125183
02/28/23 02:56 AM
02/28/23 02:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Montclaire Offline OP
master
Montclaire  Offline OP
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
I need to dial in my carb and want to use a wideband O2 sensor as a diagnostic device. The sensor only needs to mount temporarily. Since the car has 3" exhaust with cutouts, I ordered a set of header reducers and a walker 2.5" pipe with an O2 bung pre-installed. The other option was a unit that mounts an O2 in the tailpipe but I figure the cutouts get me closer to the engine.

The plan was to hook up the O2 to a basic multimeter, which would work for narrowband but apparently not for the wideband. So, back to the drawing board. I'm searching online for a cheap wideband gauge but that isn't going so well. The least expensive seems to be the AEM 30-4110 at around $170, which I have a hard time justifying. I'm thinking there HAS to be a super cheap way to link the O2 to either my phone or a laptop with basic freeware that will give me a digital AFR readout.

Again, this is a temporary, less than ideal hook up for the sake of having an extra layer of feedback for carb tuning. I know very little about oxygen sensors or electronics so whatever you suggest will have to be simple to operate. I'd like to use a LSU 4.9 sensor, which seems to be the standard in 2023. From what I've read, the 4.2s need to be calibrated, while the 4.9s do not.

Thanks

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125272
02/28/23 01:12 PM
02/28/23 01:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by Montclaire
I need to dial in my carb and want to use a wideband O2 sensor as a diagnostic device. The sensor only needs to mount temporarily. Since the car has 3" exhaust with cutouts, I ordered a set of header reducers and a walker 2.5" pipe with an O2 bung pre-installed. The other option was a unit that mounts an O2 in the tailpipe but I figure the cutouts get me closer to the engine.

The plan was to hook up the O2 to a basic multimeter, which would work for narrowband but apparently not for the wideband. So, back to the drawing board. I'm searching online for a cheap wideband gauge but that isn't going so well. The least expensive seems to be the AEM 30-4110 at around $170, which I have a hard time justifying. I'm thinking there HAS to be a super cheap way to link the O2 to either my phone or a laptop with basic freeware that will give me a digital AFR readout.

Again, this is a temporary, less than ideal hook up for the sake of having an extra layer of feedback for carb tuning. I know very little about oxygen sensors or electronics so whatever you suggest will have to be simple to operate. I'd like to use a LSU 4.9 sensor, which seems to be the standard in 2023. From what I've read, the 4.2s need to be calibrated, while the 4.9s do not.

Thanks

Cheap sounds like your mission statement tsk
When it comes to quality, I haven't found any automotive diagnosis devices "cheap" yet.
I bought and have used a Innovate LM1 wide ban System and then upgraded it later to LC1 dual wide ban system later, It has HELP me a bunch on tuning carbs in the past up
I highly recommend buying a good O2 system, not design and develop your own tsk You can use it now and if you don't want to keep it sell it later when your done learning on how to tune all the circuits in this carb. Are you done hot rodding and are you SURE you won't want to the O2 system again on another car or engine project later work shruggy
I have a A.S. degree in electronics and have been drag racing and winning and building Mopar H.P. street and strip motors for a long time, since the late 1960s. I worked for a Telephone company for 33 in customer services in outside plant years and know a little bit about electricity and electronic testing equipment. There are NO good CHEAP multimeters tsk I have several old Tripplett analog multimeters and another later Radio Shack cheaper digital read out multimeter and one good Fluke 80 multimeter that has served me well for a lot of ears, the bes testst instrument works the best up
Can you afford to burn up a good motor due to a faulty O2 system you designed and developed yourself work tsk twocents
I've burnt up and broken a lot of race partts in my pursuit of going faster and helping other racers, you can too or try and use thier helpi in preventing you from doing the same mstakes on your own work shruggy
Good luck, either way. Stay safe, don't crash because of bad, cheap or broken cheap parts tsk


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Cab_Burge] #3125290
02/28/23 01:45 PM
02/28/23 01:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Montclaire Offline OP
master
Montclaire  Offline OP
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Hello, Cab. I'm not going to burn anything up, just looking to get some additional data so I'm reading plugs for just one weekend and not four. I can't see spending a lot of money for an electronic tool, especially when 90% of the reviews I read say the O2 sensors don't last long reading pig rich exhaust. And I'm not trying to run faster, I'm trying to run cleaner. For the most part I want to see what's happening off-idle. My biggest issue may be that I'm trying to get a razor tune on ethanol blended pump gas - it seems the octane levels can be all over the map.

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125323
02/28/23 02:52 PM
02/28/23 02:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
My '68 Barracuda Convertible has a moderate cam (.246 & .252 @ .050 on 108*) in my remapped factory ECM for my EFI system. At idle, the exhaust fumes used to waft into the car and bystanders would scrunch their faces and swat away at the air when I idled by. Tuning had no real effect on reducing the burning eye fumes likely from the significant overlap of the cam.

I welded on a pair of 4 inch racing cats with the plated metal honeycomb instead of the ceramic honeycomb, just behind the collectors. The smell vanished. There was no detectable power loss and it didn't change the sound of the exhaust.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: jbc426] #3125387
02/28/23 05:50 PM
02/28/23 05:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Learn to read spark plugs. And then get an O2 sensor so you will know when it’s lying to you.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125442
02/28/23 09:34 PM
02/28/23 09:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S Offline
member
Ray S  Offline
member

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
I put narrow band O2 on mine, as I don't worry about the 14-1 to 15-1 range precision. With 10 ethanol it wants 13.5 or so anyway.
I use an ADC from work, but an Arduino or sound card will read as well.
Most interesting thing is seeing the uneven O2 from the dual plane intake.

IMG_6324.JPGtuner-SW.jpg
Last edited by Ray S; 02/28/23 09:35 PM.
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Ray S] #3125536
03/01/23 08:08 AM
03/01/23 08:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
A
Alchemi Offline
enthusiast
Alchemi  Offline
enthusiast
A

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
Here you go, $95 plus post, some soldering required. Add $30 to not solder with the model up

Thier real products look pretty good too, have seen very frew negative remarks for thier products

https://www.14point7.com/products/sigma-lambda-controller-free-2 $45 without the sensor

I don't think using a cut out and short length of tube will work the best. One of the reasons the sensor is meant to be as close to the port as possible is to avoid outside air contamination from the end of the exhaust system

If you're already playing with Arduino style stuff you might get out of it cheaper than that, but at the expense of time and faffing about.

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125603
03/01/23 11:20 AM
03/01/23 11:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.

You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.

The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.

Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one.


Master, again and still
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Alchemi] #3125605
03/01/23 11:26 AM
03/01/23 11:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,136
tennessee,usa
mattsmopars Offline
master
mattsmopars  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,136
tennessee,usa
I bought two of the Innovate LM-2 kits from summit. One O2 sensor on each kit gave out basically within 10 minutes of run time. I got frustrated with that kit and sent the last one back because of that issue. I bought a FAST kit but have not used it since purchasing it, so I can not say to the quality of that kit. When I was researching I could find no relatively cheap dual wide band O2 sensor.
Matt

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: mattsmopars] #3125691
03/01/23 04:09 PM
03/01/23 04:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
I've learn that the Bosch and GM O2 sensors work on non ethanol pump swill okay but not so good on all the other pump fuels out there now whiney
If your wanting a better sensor for the other fuels the NTK ones are the best ones out there, not cheap but they work very well and live up scope
Leaded race gas will kill the standards Bosch and GM O2 sensors rather quickly whiney shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Alchemi] #3125725
03/01/23 06:13 PM
03/01/23 06:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Montclaire Offline OP
master
Montclaire  Offline OP
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Originally Posted by Alchemi
Here you go, $95 plus post, some soldering required. Add $30 to not solder with the model up

Thier real products look pretty good too, have seen very frew negative remarks for thier products

https://www.14point7.com/products/sigma-lambda-controller-free-2 $45 without the sensor

I don't think using a cut out and short length of tube will work the best. One of the reasons the sensor is meant to be as close to the port as possible is to avoid outside air contamination from the end of the exhaust system

If you're already playing with Arduino style stuff you might get out of it cheaper than that, but at the expense of time and faffing about.


That's actually looks pretty good for the price. I found a second hand Innovate LC2 on facebook for $50 so I'm going to give that a try. The only other temporary mount that I found was one that clamps to the exhaust tip. Mounting the sensor to the cut out is closer to the headpipe, and it's a more solid mount so I can get a read with the car in motion. I'm going to leave it a touch rich anyway, it should be fine. Thanks

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: DaveRS23] #3125730
03/01/23 06:30 PM
03/01/23 06:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Montclaire Offline OP
master
Montclaire  Offline OP
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.

You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.

The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.

Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one.


The carb is a 800 cfm Edelbrock AVS2 on a dual plane 440, which is reasonably close to OE application. I am tuning for the street, which as you point out is much more involved than how I would have tuned the thing in my younger years when it was either at idle or I had my foot in the water pump. I'm especially interested to see what's going on from off-idle to light cruise in real time, something I'm not going to get from just reading plugs. I've driven carbureted vehicles for a long time so I'm not expecting miracles. What I am expecting is to have some real data to guide me instead of just a shot in the dark.

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125739
03/01/23 06:58 PM
03/01/23 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S Offline
member
Ray S  Offline
member

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
I made graphs a couple years ago like these. I re-jetted since and need to re-do when the snow melts.
I have a full jet selection, and will test spivvys at the same time to even the mixture distribution.

WOT to part.jpgClipboard02.jpg
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125783
03/01/23 09:24 PM
03/01/23 09:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
Originally Posted by Montclaire
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
I have ran O2s for years. First with narrow bands and then with the wide bands. In my opinion, this is a subject that is hard to be only a little bit pregnant in. The varying amount of alcohol affects the reading, you have to really know the carb's circuits in order to know how to make the necessary changes, you need the right carb that has all the changeable bleeds and jets or have a good set of tiny drill bits and taps and all the bleeds and jets to go with those tools. It can be expensive and exhausting to start.

You didn't say whether you were tuning primarily for track or street. They are typically 2 different tunes. The cruise and WOT settings are usually not real hard if the carb is the right one for the job to begin with. The closer the carb is to being right for the application, then the less mods will be necessary to bring it in.

The idle, just off idle, and transitions before the main circuits come in are the real challenges to tune. This includes the emulsions. They overlap so much and there are not a lot of carbs that have screw in bleeds and such in those circuits. Now those circuits are usually not as important on a track car. Pump shot alone can cover up a lot of ills in that area when the throttle only goes from fast idle to WOT. But on the street, those circuits are absolutely critical. Some cars even end up cruising on the idle and transition circuits. That is a real can of worms to sort out and means that major compromises must be made.

Obviously, I don't have any advice on a cheap wide band. I just thought it was important to touch on a few of the issues surrounding using one.


The carb is a 800 cfm Edelbrock AVS2 on a dual plane 440, which is reasonably close to OE application. I am tuning for the street, which as you point out is much more involved than how I would have tuned the thing in my younger years when it was either at idle or I had my foot in the water pump. I'm especially interested to see what's going on from off-idle to light cruise in real time, something I'm not going to get from just reading plugs. I've driven carbureted vehicles for a long time so I'm not expecting miracles. What I am expecting is to have some real data to guide me instead of just a shot in the dark.


The CarterBrocks are absolutely the hardest carbs out there to tune in the transitions. At least for most folks. Nothing in that area can be adjusted without drill bits. While they may be the closest platform to some of the OE carbs, their tunes are not OE.

If you are really going to tackle carb tuning for a street application, you might do well to consider any of the myriad versions of the Holley 4150. Much, much easier to tune for the less experienced tuner and you can get tuning parts at almost any auto parts store. Try that with the CarterBrocks.

And just to be clear, the CarterBrocks are not bad in and of themselves. It's just that their tune is usually farther off base than a correct version of a 4150, are harder to tune than the 4150s, and are much harder to find parts for.

Here is a tuning chart for the CarterBrocks. The fun starts about page 9, and peaks on page 13. Just looking at their tuning charts is a trip all by itself. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

https://edelbrock-instructions-v1.s3.amazonaws.com/edelbrock/carb-tuning-guide.pdf


Master, again and still
Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: DaveRS23] #3125806
03/01/23 10:48 PM
03/01/23 10:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
Montclaire Offline OP
master
Montclaire  Offline OP
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,982
Scranton, PA
I have the tuning guide and a strip kit. I don't think there have been any changes to the guide since I saw my first copy 20+ years ago. I already know that I'll probably have to lean out the primaries and fatten up the pump shot to get it across the hump. I got it close last season but it can be better. Not my first rodeo with a carterbrock. This is the first time that I feel confident enough to push the lean envelope with one though.

Re: Cheapest way to run a wideband for carb tuning? [Re: Montclaire] #3125858
03/02/23 09:59 AM
03/02/23 09:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
thumbs Keep us posted on your progress.


Master, again and still






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1